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Why Endgame is lackluster, and what Bioware should do.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Why Endgame is lackluster, and what Bioware should do.

CyberData's Avatar


CyberData
01.23.2012 , 11:23 AM | #21
Problem is that endgame is the same skinner box that WoW was. Group up, run raids for purples.

Same basic design with nothing else. No innovation in that regard. I would personally like to see SOME basic sandbox content at endgame. Nothing crazy. Keep raiding in the game, it's fun but even ice cream tastes nasty when you don't eat anything else.
I can't heal through stupid....

Canarith's Avatar


Canarith
01.23.2012 , 11:28 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Artacks View Post
I agree. In its current state this game is awful. I've tried to look past the boredom and the bugs, and the lack of "open world" whether it be travelling around or pvp.

Its just so bad. At this point they would almost have to re-work the entire game.

Good thing diablo 3 is in may (?!)
You clearly didn't read what he said. He never once said the game in its current state is awful. Please go away and start trolling somewhere else.

Canarith's Avatar


Canarith
01.23.2012 , 11:36 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by JamieM View Post
I agree - it would simplify everything whilst at the same time giving the entire server a universal touchstone to measure progression.

Have one or two entry level raids set at 8 man (with lower level reward epics) to get people used to larger group sizes, and then upper tiers kick off at 16 man raids with progressively harder group mechanics in each tiered encounter.

Basically how WoW was pre WotLK.

Karazhan > Gruul > Magtheridon's Lair > SSC > TK > MH > BT > SW was the best progression flow of any MMO I have played and the difficulty tuning was spot on.
The problem with your progression chart is that not all of those instances came into the game at the same time, so comparing all of BC to the first month or so of a new MMO isn't quite fair. Just consider the fact that in the future there will be further operations that you can compare on a similar level to WoW. Don't try and compare it a month after the game came out. Consider the fact that it was basically trying to find 40 people for Molten Core right after the game came out and even if you are talking about BC, the raiding still came out gradually.

FuzzyMuffins's Avatar


FuzzyMuffins
01.23.2012 , 11:46 AM | #24
The raiding came out slowly, I never raided much in WoW, but i assume it was good raiding Otherwise why would all the guilds stick around to do so?

I hate the argument, the game just came out, because it is 2012. Companies know what we as consumers want and they need to deliver. Instead of scamming us and being held up by people saying it will get better.

The first raids were easy and bugged, wait till 1.1.. 1.1 came out finished in one night. It was in development for almost a year.

Even rift had a hard raid instance and 3 weeks later made another raid instance just as hard. None of it was cleared the first week or two and only the hardcore guilds, 5 days a week raiding, were clearing the content at a steady pace. I use rift as an example because it was the most recent MMO launch.

Gothbag's Avatar


Gothbag
01.23.2012 , 11:50 AM | #25
Good post OP.

Stop already with the only one mode ******** already please.

Yummymango's Avatar


Yummymango
01.23.2012 , 12:12 PM | #26
I think I agree with each and every point that OP posted. Well thought out.

Quote: Originally Posted by FuzzyMuffins View Post
Even rift had a hard raid instance and 3 weeks later made another raid instance just as hard. None of it was cleared the first week or two and only the hardcore guilds, 5 days a week raiding, were clearing the content at a steady pace. I use rift as an example because it was the most recent MMO launch.
No matter how much people hate Rift, I have to say that it was a well polished game at launch. Their bug fixes were hourly (i know because i was there) and the devs were responding to each and every issue very quickly. I did get bored and I stopped playing but I will say I was impressed.

Quote: Originally Posted by FuzzyMuffins View Post
I hate the argument, the game just came out, because it is 2012. Companies know what we as consumers want and they need to deliver. Instead of scamming us and being held up by people saying it will get better.

The first raids were easy and bugged, wait till 1.1.. 1.1 came out finished in one night. It was in development for almost a year.
.

I agree 100% with you on this. Why should we even compare SWTOR with WOW or any other game. Why cant BW set some standards for other MMO rather than giving us an excuse that it took WOW for so many years to perfect so we will also take our sweet time.

Chimi's Avatar


Chimi
01.23.2012 , 12:42 PM | #27
Molten Core, outside of Rag, was actually very easy. Once they get this game smoothed out and can focus on developing end game content, I expect it to get better. The fights themselves have the mechanics there. I think its just a matter of tuning the numbers correctly for each difficulty. And of course seperating hard modes from nightmare modes by adding additional abilities or phases to make them more in depth.

Like I was telling some people in my guild, the height of raiding in WoW was Burning Crusade when Blizzard made raid content and ddnt care who could do it or not. Sure, hardcore raiding guilds may be the minority in games, but that doesnt mean their numbers are small. We are still talking about tens of thousands of players who do it. So developing content for them and making it difficult isn't a waste.
--==MORS CERTA==--
Looking for highly skilled, progression oriented people for end game raiding.
Join Mors Certa

From_Afar's Avatar


From_Afar
01.23.2012 , 01:00 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Canarith View Post
The problem with your progression chart is that not all of those instances came into the game at the same time, so comparing all of BC to the first month or so of a new MMO isn't quite fair. Just consider the fact that in the future there will be further operations that you can compare on a similar level to WoW. Don't try and compare it a month after the game came out. Consider the fact that it was basically trying to find 40 people for Molten Core right after the game came out and even if you are talking about BC, the raiding still came out gradually.
I think you missed the entire point as to why he listed the BC raid progression. He stated that single mode raids are preferable to multi-mode raids and used BC as an example. I understand why developers use the mechanic with it being so much less expensive to simply modify and reuse an existing raid over creating a new one from scratch but emphatically agree with the poster you quoted that raiding in BC was the best I've seen in any MMO.

You're response is, "Wait and give them time to develop more raids" while missing his point that EV should be the entry raid with more on the horizon without HM and NMM.

Artacks's Avatar


Artacks
01.23.2012 , 01:00 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Canarith View Post
You clearly didn't read what he said. He never once said the game in its current state is awful. Please go away and start trolling somewhere else.
I'm sorry, did I insult your beloved game?

Before you attempt to troll me, think about what I said. You can't argue with it, its basically philosophy at this point.

Again, in its current state the game is awful. You sit on the fleet all day watching people attempt to find tanks. You have no reason to go anywhere but Ilum and Belsavis, which makes every other planet worthless. Biochem is the only good crewskill to go atm because everything else sucks. There is barely any content, most content can be cleared in two nights, and half the flashpoints can't be done on Hard.

Maybe you like sitting around and RPing, or doing nothing all day, but the majority of people don't. And all we're saying is that we hope they fix it, because if they don't, they are going to lose a lot of subs to games like GW2 and WoW. I definitely don't want to see that happen.

Ghost_Dancer's Avatar


Ghost_Dancer
01.23.2012 , 01:27 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by JamieM View Post
Have one or two entry level raids set at 8 man (with lower level reward epics) to get people used to larger group sizes, and then upper tiers kick off at 16 man raids with progressively harder group mechanics in each tiered encounter.
Sorry, but that's a terrible idea, essentially excluding smaller guilds from the majority of raids. End game content should be available to everyone who wants to do it. Even fielding an 8 man team can be tricky for smaller guilds due to time zones, RL commitments and so on.

I've no problem with larger groups getting more/better loot but being a small guild should not exclude them from content. BW would be foolish to do so - possibly losing subscriptions and also the fact that all the work they put into raids will be seen by fewer players.

I think that as long as each mode offers sufficient reward vs challenge, then its a perfectly good model. However, I do agree that the harder modes need additional mechanics or something to make the encounter different.