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Dooku vs Windu


grucho's Avatar


grucho
01.22.2012 , 01:15 AM | #1
Ok so who would win if they dueled.

In some novels it was mentioned that only Jedis who outmatched Mace Windu in duel was Dooku and Yoda. And it was also said that Dooku never managed to win with Yoda in duel. Ofcourse this is all back in the past when Dooku was still Jedi master and they had only sparings so not a proper live or die duel.

Now fast forward to the new trilogy.

AOTC - Yoda doesn't win with Dooku but you could say Dooku flees from the duel.

ROTS - Windu beats Sidious and as we know Sidious was Dooku's master.

I think also Obi Wan mentioned in AOTC to Anakin that he might one day be as powerfull force user as Yoda and as good swordsman as Windu.


So yeah, who would win in duel, Dooku or Windu? I personaly think Windu mainly because he created his own fighting style Vaapad which for me is the best form.

BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
01.22.2012 , 01:26 AM | #2
Windu fought Yoda to a draw and he couldn't use Vapaad at its best. Vapaad relies on the Dark Side for the User and the Opponent. So if you use Vapaad against a Dark Sider, its in its prime. If you use against Yoda(The Almighty Light Sider), you can't use as well.


Here is the Cake for WIndu:

Mastered all 6 Forms and Created a New One: Cake
Shatterpoint: The Delicious Icing.


Dooku, is powerful. Very Powerful, but nothing like Windu.


I suggest you read Shatterpoint and the RoTS Novelization. Both written by the same author.

Shatterpoint is IMO the best TCW Era Book and the best Stand Alone book.
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."

grucho's Avatar


grucho
01.22.2012 , 01:49 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by BrandonSM View Post
Windu fought Yoda to a draw and he couldn't use Vapaad at its best. Vapaad relies on the Dark Side for the User and the Opponent. So if you use Vapaad against a Dark Sider, its in its prime. If you use against Yoda(The Almighty Light Sider), you can't use as well.


Here is the Cake for WIndu:

Mastered all 6 Forms and Created a New One: Cake
Shatterpoint: The Delicious Icing.


Dooku, is powerful. Very Powerful, but nothing like Windu.


I suggest you read Shatterpoint and the RoTS Novelization. Both written by the same author.

Shatterpoint is IMO the best TCW Era Book and the best Stand Alone book.
That's interesting point. I had a Dooku fan who was insisting on Windu having no chance as Dooku is probably the best user of Makashi in history of galaxy. And Makashi being purely form for duels that would supposly outmach Vapaad. And ofcourse for the fact back in the day he won a sparing duel with Windu which doesn't mean that much.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.22.2012 , 02:01 AM | #4
There's various factors that push and pull one way or the other. In Dark Rendezvous Yoda muses that Mace might not be able to beat Dooku. Yes they used to be equal in the past but Dooku has grown stronger under the tutelage of Darth Sidious.

The ROTS novelization hints strongly that the only reason Dooku lost against Anakin is due to the fact that he realized Sidious wanted Anakin to win. This made him lose his cool as well as his own hatred. Anakin capitalizing on the moment (unaware of this) and just given in to his anger allows him to overcome Dooku.

This means against Anakin Dooku wasn't at his strongest.

So far it seems Windu is outmatched by Dooku but in Windu's favor..

Vaapad. Vaapad is designed to counter Dark Force users and brings the user close to darkness. This is why Windu was the only one to master this form without falling to the dark side. Even using this form he always held back in fear of giving too much into his aggression and in fear for falling to the dark side himself. In his duel with Sidious he gave himself completely to Vaapad. Something he's never done before. Meaning in that moment he was performing better than he ever has in his entire life.

My conclusion?

Dooku is stronger than people give him credit for. He likely would have defeated Anakin in normal circumstances. Anakin was powerful but Dooku was older and more experienced. Dooku is still quite a bit stronger than people give him credit for. I think Windu, even with Vaapad, is most likely Dooku's equal. Yoda not factoring in Vaapad performing very well against Dark Side users.

Now this is where it changes. I think Windu, losing his fear of Vaapad and delving into it further than ever before is more powerful than Dooku. I think, in a sense, Windu had been holding back over the years. In that moment he truly mastered Vaapad and was able to give it his all. I'm referring to his duel with Sidious of course.

Darth_Psilakis's Avatar


Darth_Psilakis
01.22.2012 , 02:53 AM | #5
Dooku was a very accomplished duelist and a master of Form 2: Makashi, while Windu was a master swordsman as well, mastering all 7 forms and creating a VARIENT off of the 7th form.

The original form 7 is called Juyo, while Windu's creation is called Vaapad. Essentially the biggest difference between the two is the philosophy behind each (while still being classified as the same form).Juyo & Vaapad both take strength from being unpredictable with strikes coming from all angles. Juyo was designed for a heavy offense and taking on single armed opponents but was vulnerable to those using force attacks like dark jedi. Mace Windu was the only master to FULLY master Vaapad and as such learned ways to negate these vulnerabilities as demonstrated in his duel with Sidious in which he channeled the dark power of Sidious' force lightning through him and redirected it back at Sidious without it affecting him.

Makashi was designed after Shii-Cho for the purpose of addressing lightsaber to lightsaber combat. It focused more on efficiency and precision over brute strength. Makashi made use of light cuts and jabs instead of hack and slash techniques. However it lacked the strength to deliver and defend against strong attacks like those of form 5: Shien/Djem So as demonstrated in Dooku's fight against Anakin at the beginning of RotS. However it should be noted that both Anakin and Obi-Wan decieved Dooku early in this fight, relying on basic sword techniques at first and then changing to their preferred styles mid fight, Djem So and Soresu respectively. Dooku was a master at Makashi and even stated prior to his fall to the dark side, that after closely inspecting Vaapad, described the style as "bridled and weak without the use of the dark side".

Personally I think the match would be very close, with both contenders being extremely skilled swordsman. However I think Windu would take the cake, essentially because I believe him to be the more powerful force wielder of the two.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
01.22.2012 , 04:25 AM | #6
Mace Windu mastered all six forms and then designed his own, this in my opinion makes him superior to Dooku's excellent Makashi proficiency where duelling is concerned, but in the force, Dooku far outmatches Windu, in my opinion, the first one to make a mistake would lose.

DS_Romer's Avatar


DS_Romer
01.22.2012 , 06:31 AM | #7
It's funny how ridiculous all these lightsabre 'forms' are. Ataru for example is stupid because spinning around, turning your back, jumping up and down is a fantastic way to lose a fight. It's great if you're Yoda sized, but otherwise, idiotic.

Also, they are all basically using the same weapon. So it's not like we've got a broad sword fighting a rapier or something. All you would need is to combine the forms of soresu (defense against everything) with makashi (sabre combat) to form one, actually usable form.

It's stupid that the Jedi order would aparantly teach forms that leave glaring weaknesses in the Jedi's armoury. I mean Qui-Gon aparantly died because the confined nature of that room stopped him using his 'form' properly. Ahahahahha... The Jedi Master died because the Jedi trained him in a lightsabre form he couldn't use inside?

Stuff like Vaapad should be a state of mind, rather than a sabre form. Makashi is designed to be the best for sabre to sabre combat and Soresu the impregnable defense. Why the hell create something else?

DMtyrisis's Avatar


DMtyrisis
01.22.2012 , 08:07 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by grucho View Post
ROTS - Windu beats Sidious and as we know Sidious was Dooku's master.
This is a common misconception. Although I thought it was clear in the movie, the novelization made it perfectly clear. Mace Windu did not beat Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious played opposum when he saw Anakin enter the chamber, to assist in the process of swaying him to the Sith teachings by showing how evil and corrupt the Jedi had become.

I'm quite confident that Darth Sidious could have destroyed Mace Windu at any time. He pwned Yoda for the love of God! Darth Sidious was a bad mamba-jamba!

As for the original question posed by the OP, I think it would most likely be a draw between Mace Windu and Darth Tyrannus. They were both very skilled and dedicated to their craft. Environment would most likely be the deciding factor between the two.

NOTE: As much as I love Christopher Lee as Saruman, he just didn't capture the way Darth Tyrannus was described in the novelizations of Episodes II and III. He could have been so much cooler than an old guy with a funny lightsaber.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
01.22.2012 , 08:32 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by DMtyrisis View Post
This is a common misconception. Although I thought it was clear in the movie, the novelization made it perfectly clear. Mace Windu did not beat Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious played opposum when he saw Anakin enter the chamber, to assist in the process of swaying him to the Sith teachings by showing how evil and corrupt the Jedi had become.

I'm quite confident that Darth Sidious could have destroyed Mace Windu at any time. He pwned Yoda for the love of God! Darth Sidious was a bad mamba-jamba!
Incorrect, George Lucas himself stated in the Revenge of the Sith commentaries that Master Windu defeated Darth Sidious in the duel.

BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
01.22.2012 , 09:24 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
There's various factors that push and pull one way or the other. In Dark Rendezvous Yoda muses that Mace might not be able to beat Dooku. Yes they used to be equal in the past but Dooku has grown stronger under the tutelage of Darth Sidious.

The ROTS novelization hints strongly that the only reason Dooku lost against Anakin is due to the fact that he realized Sidious wanted Anakin to win. This made him lose his cool as well as his own hatred. Anakin capitalizing on the moment (unaware of this) and just given in to his anger allows him to overcome Dooku.

This means against Anakin Dooku wasn't at his strongest.

So far it seems Windu is outmatched by Dooku but in Windu's favor..

Vaapad. Vaapad is designed to counter Dark Force users and brings the user close to darkness. This is why Windu was the only one to master this form without falling to the dark side. Even using this form he always held back in fear of giving too much into his aggression and in fear for falling to the dark side himself. In his duel with Sidious he gave himself completely to Vaapad. Something he's never done before. Meaning in that moment he was performing better than he ever has in his entire life.

My conclusion?

Dooku is stronger than people give him credit for. He likely would have defeated Anakin in normal circumstances. Anakin was powerful but Dooku was older and more experienced. Dooku is still quite a bit stronger than people give him credit for. I think Windu, even with Vaapad, is most likely Dooku's equal. Yoda not factoring in Vaapad performing very well against Dark Side users.

Now this is where it changes. I think Windu, losing his fear of Vaapad and delving into it further than ever before is more powerful than Dooku. I think, in a sense, Windu had been holding back over the years. In that moment he truly mastered Vaapad and was able to give it his all. I'm referring to his duel with Sidious of course.
You forget Windu has Shatterpoint as well... and he has mastered all 7 Forms. Which means he doesn't have to use Vapaad though its his primary.
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."