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No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

Kthx's Avatar


Kthx
01.25.2012 , 12:40 PM | #241
Quote: Originally Posted by Descento View Post
if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it


/thread
If I'm able to cut in front of you in a line at the supermarket, then I'm allowed to do it.

Is that really the world you want to live in? [Rhetorical question: You've already answered it.]

Massimoto's Avatar


Massimoto
01.25.2012 , 12:42 PM | #242
Quote: Originally Posted by Descento View Post
if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it
See, I'm able to smack people in the head in real life, but I'm not allowed to do it.

Vlacke's Avatar


Vlacke
01.25.2012 , 12:44 PM | #243
I feel sorry for the OP honestly because i really dislike ninjas.
That being said, there will always be stupid and selfish people, as the time passes they will become known on their servers, word will be spread and no one normal will invite them to group any more.

Yesterday in a flashpoint i had to take action once a saw a particular female Smuggler joined the group because on two previous occasions i saw him he (is a guy obviously) was needing on trooper heavy armor, at first i thought he clicked need for his companion, which i could understand to some extent so we told him to greed thinking he will get the idea, but once he got his hands on a dual blade lightsaber it became clear that he is an idiot to say the least.

He was immediately kicked from the group once i explained to the rest of the people what awaits them if he hangs around, if they didn't take my word for it i would have left honestly.

It doesn't bother me so much because in due time when they become infamous on server they will have to either make new characters in order for anyone to play with them or change the way they behave completely, most likely both.

Sufran's Avatar


Sufran
01.25.2012 , 12:44 PM | #244
Quote: Originally Posted by ferroz View Post
No, only you and your groups benefit. The idea that because you and your clique are better off means that things are better for everyone is an inherently selfish point of view.
This is speculative, you have no idea as to whether or not somebody is insulated to their clique. I can envisage many scenarios wherein an individual does interact with the community as a whole due to the game being designed exactly for that purpose, whether via participating in PvE pick-up-groups, in PvP pick-up-groups, helping an individual that has requested it in General, by helping those they meet whilst levelling an alternative character, etc. As a result, I regard this as a straw-man because you're attributing conditions that are beneficial to you without any evidence to support that being the case.

Quote:
If it's an item that you later replace, it's only a temporary gain even for that clique. Take the case where someone takes an item, rips a mod out of it and then keeps that mod longer than you would keep that item. At that point, you raise the long term community stats more by letting that individual take the item and rip the one mod out...
Worthless argument as, unless you're capable of seeing the future, you have no idea as to who will use things for the greatest quantity of time. Moreover, the window of usage is not the only variable that matters.

Quote:
Besides that, it clearly doesn't help everyone; a quick counter example: as the gear level of you and your clique increases, the disparity between you and a newly leveled character increases, raising the expectations placed on all characters regardless of gear, making it harder for new characters to get groups. You can see that in action toward the end of an expansion in most MMOs (it happened a lot in both EQ and WoW)
Until we have evidence of this occurring in this game, I regret that I'll regard this as invalid as it is speculation based on an entirely different paradigm. Moreover, it is entirely ignorant of possible benefits via selective blindness. What of the increased capacity to 'carry' those individuals and 'boost' them? What of the fact that new content is geared towards those in possession of higher tiers thus the pre-existing collective would be unable to progress if distribution mechanics weren't optimised? I don't pretend to state that such would happen or off-set it, but I'm not the one making a definitive claim as to the harm it will have on 'new characters' with nothing but speculation and anecdote. The reductio ad absurdum is that nobody should ever progress because the disparities introduced by it, apparently, have no positive impact at all on the collective.

Quote:
The logic you're using here is analogous to "robbing banks makes the world a better place because I can give my friends money" ... it really doesn't help the community. The robber just thinks it does because he's trying to see himself as not being selfish.
This is a complete straw-man, no it isn't analogous. In the instance of the bank, the items taken are already private property and are being redistributed without the consent or against the will of those owners. The items rolled upon have no inherent owner (beyond the collective that earned them as a whole thus whose social principles determine who gains individual ownership) thus it is not 'theft.' Equally, you are relying on your speculation that any benefits would solely be conferred upon friends when there are many dynamics in an MMO that allow collective benefits.

What would be an appropriate analogy? Perhaps that a group, not necessarily friends, finds a hitherto unknown deposit of a substance that solely belongs to their group, their social dynamics mean that the person best qualified to maximise gain from that is given control of the deposit, and that person uses their control to benefit the group but also the community around them as a whole via their interactions with it (replace 'making group content easier' with 'spending the earning from that deposit in local businesses and charities' or such). Of course, any analogy is going to be weak because reality doesn't have items popping spontaneously into existence.

Quote:
It benefits the community as a whole more, since it increases the average level of gear by a larger amount.
Speculative as per above post.

Quote:
Implied ad hominem attacks make your arguments look just as weak as overt ones...
No, it is irrational to presume that an ad hominem has impact on the overall validity of an argument and is a worthless rhetoric technique. If I call an individual a 'cretin' for believing that the Earth is flat after providing considerable empirical proof to the contrary, my fundamental argument is not 'weakened.' It is those that are focused more on style and manipulation rather than substance that presume such things.
Artemisia - Sith Sorceress (Corruption) - Lord Calypho
"We have almost succeeded in levelling all human activities to the common denominator of securing the necessities of life and providing for their abundance." - Hannah Arendt.

Daedricshots's Avatar


Daedricshots
01.25.2012 , 12:45 PM | #245
This is one of the reasons i dont run flashpoints or raid. I strictly pvp.

On a side note though, whoever does this is really a bottom shelf human being.

Grygost's Avatar


Grygost
01.25.2012 , 12:48 PM | #246
If there is a need button, I'm gonna roll need.

Can I have your stuff?

This is a game suck it up.

My companion needs it.

I play on my time which is more important than yours.

I am entitled to anything that drops I helped kill the boss.

If it wasn't for me you wouldn't kill the boss to get the loot.

On and on and on, Do I win the internetz now?

Seriously set rules at the beginning of the run. I always asked before we roll out. Anyone rolls on stuff they can't use /ignore or /drop the player. Virtual games and space make people think that everything is theirs or they can be a Jackalope and get away with it. Beat up much in school? Get your lunch money taken by the big and bad girls? Mommy making you take the trash out? I love Trolls. They get a rise in the internetz so they feel better about basement dwelling. End these threads and play the game.

Logiick's Avatar


Logiick
01.25.2012 , 12:50 PM | #247
This issue will never be fixed until Bioware implements being unable to roll on gear you're not actually supposed to use.

Logiick's Avatar


Logiick
01.25.2012 , 12:51 PM | #248
Quote: Originally Posted by Kthx View Post
If I'm able to cut in front of you in a line at the supermarket, then I'm allowed to do it.
You're not able, though.
Simply wouldn't allow it and tell you to **** off or beat your ***.

Cute analogy though.

Norumaniac's Avatar


Norumaniac
01.25.2012 , 12:54 PM | #249
Quote: Originally Posted by Skaara View Post
They really need to add class restrictions to the need button. The problem won't go away until they do.
This.

Raximillian's Avatar


Raximillian
01.25.2012 , 12:57 PM | #250
Loot bag for flashpoints. Problem solved...

I also just run with RL friends, so do not have this problem, but I believe BW should do something about it. Need only available for items with your stat, or just loot bags and get over it.