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Empire = Alliance


Orange-kun's Avatar


Orange-kun
01.22.2012 , 12:01 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Halofax View Post
Lol i spelled thrall wrong, i'll admit it.

But I dont get why the bad guys are always liked to the horde.

The only bad guys in WoW are the blood elves and Undead. Everyone else is just shades of grey.
Aliens (orcs) running from their own crappy world's problems and invading another world, slaughtering its people and taking their lands is definitely evil, sorry. The blood elves are absolutely -not- evil, on the other hand. They're just snobs.

DarkestDaemon's Avatar


DarkestDaemon
01.22.2012 , 12:08 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by JediArchives View Post
Heh. The Jedi were never the aggresors when it came to the Schisms. Each time, the Dark Side users who were rebelling from the Order attacked and unleashed Dark Side abominations on the Jedi and Republic first...(the jedi did not persecute the dark siders in the second schism...the Dark Jedi/Sith are always first to attack without any warning) can't really blame the Jedi for defending themselves. Why start a war, sweeping through republic space killing all in your way, if you're not prepared to be on the losing side? And the Jedi weren't the ones who hunted the Sith down after the GHW, that was the Supreme Chancellor and Republic troops. This is shown in the timeline entry on this website.

But the Jedi are the evil ones, right.
Then you need to reread it...

Jedi Shadows were on Korriban.

Weezyfb's Avatar


Weezyfb
01.22.2012 , 12:13 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Backbones View Post
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an empire without sith would fall. The jedi would destroy you. The Republic would win.

Considering there are sith that can dominate entire armies, defeat entire battalions, and see things before they happen. The sith are necessary, every imp can see that, that does not mean you have to like them

JonnnyB's Avatar


JonnnyB
01.22.2012 , 12:18 AM | #34
I <3 the sith code:

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

Words to live by my friends!

There is NOTHING inherently evil in this.

IMO the Jedi code is a ruinous code used by good people and the Sith code is a good code used by evil people.

-- No Anakin you can't love Padme b/c that will lead to evil....

Lot a good saying that did anybody!!!!

Stormcloudx's Avatar


Stormcloudx
01.22.2012 , 03:12 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by JediArchives View Post
Heh. The Jedi were never the aggresors when it came to the Schisms. Each time, the Dark Side users who were rebelling from the Order attacked and unleashed Dark Side abominations on the Jedi and Republic first...(the jedi did not persecute the dark siders in the second schism...the Dark Jedi/Sith are always first to attack without any warning) can't really blame the Jedi for defending themselves. Why start a war, sweeping through republic space killing all in your way, if you're not prepared to be on the losing side? And the Jedi weren't the ones who hunted the Sith down after the GHW, that was the Supreme Chancellor and Republic troops. This is shown in the timeline entry on this website.

But the Jedi are the evil ones, right.
Another poster already rebutted this before me, but I will add.... evil will always rise again cause good is dumb...and in this case the true good and true evil is debatable. But republic faction..is one that has same issues we have today..capital hill BS...the empire and its order..that's the way to go.

Backbones's Avatar


Backbones
01.22.2012 , 03:20 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by SalsaDMA View Post
I would say you are mislead in your claim.
Do the Sith have the potential to be better than they are? Absolutely.

In practice, are they woefully misled, mistaking "passion" for "hate" and "anger", too busy squabbling in their petty self-serving power struggles, blindly narcissistic as the core of their beliefs in practice, to the point that they are harmful to the rest of the Empire's ability to function? Definitely.

Quote:
an empire without sith would fall. The jedi would destroy you. The Republic would win.
An Empire without the Sith wouldn't pick unnecessary fights stemming from religious Jihad. There would be no reason to go to war. The Jedi would have no reason to instigate violence. The Treaty would be safe.
An Empire without Sith -- because we deserve better!

Haajib's Avatar


Haajib
01.22.2012 , 03:35 AM | #37
Empire is a superstate, with thousands of conquered worlds, either by war or diplomacy, they all contribute as a single mind contributing with the best society has to offer. Some of the brightest minds in the galaxy has under the cause of history commen from Imperial worlds. Some of the best weapons and medical technology would also come from the empire.

Backbones's Avatar


Backbones
01.22.2012 , 03:42 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Haajib View Post
Empire is a superstate, with thousands of conquered worlds, either by war or diplomacy, they all contribute as a single mind contributing with the best society has to offer. Some of the brightest minds in the galaxy has under the cause of history commen from Imperial worlds. Some of the best weapons and medical technology would also come from the empire.
And then those brightest minds, best weapons, technology, etc -- are abused by a ruling class of people who are raised to believe that all of these things exist for their sake.

With the Sith at the head of the Empire, the Empire will fall (and we know this to be true, because we know the lore that comes after TOR's setting). And it will fall because the Sith do not care about the well-being of their empire except insofar as it can be abused for their own pleasure.
An Empire without Sith -- because we deserve better!

Uruare's Avatar


Uruare
01.23.2012 , 09:06 AM | #39
I wanna see a Sith that goes as headfirst into unbridled, barely-restrained love for lots of many things.

Passion is often inclusive and exclusive, can easily lead to greed, obsession and certainly self-destruction. Consider the mythology of the Muse, said to inspire beyond all reckoning but that the muse-touched would burn their candle on both ends for it and be gone all the sooner; consider the realities of those that fixate on something to the neglect of their health, well-being and so on and it's a relationship that can be easily visible in one of its pitfalls.


Still, the Jedi seem to be all about a very sterile and detached sort of Light and some very stagnative notions about Peace and Love too.

They're nothing at all like a philosophical hippie. They're iconically stoic more than anything else, so we've got the Ommmmmm-droning textureless, flavorless and super-bland if they're represented ideally Jedi on one side...

...And the Gar Rar Rar Sith of Self-Imploding Hate-fear-rage and all their petty fellows such as jealousy, greed and so on.

A philosophically angled question I'd pose is this: Why must Light be void of passion? Pure white light in its literal form is itself comprised of innumerable interplays and bandwidths of every frequency and intensity, so if we're going to hang so much on it as a reference, maybe a lesson could be taken from the reference origin?

Maybe no one individual is supposed to try to be the All Omming OmniLight, and maybe there'd be some powerfully good reason to be a bandwidth that is copacetic to both one's vital nature and one's conscious determinations and desires of self?

For that matter, Darkness is not a reference towards a substance, but an absence of Light. You have no quantity of Light in absolute darkness, not an abundance of 'dark'.

If you think about it for a bit, the Sith are Lightsiders in that framing; they're just adherents of some very different bandwidths and intensities and mountains of hairbrained ideas of self-importance (not a bit differently than the Jedi, just differently moralized) because, again to reference the references of Light and Dark, true Darkness would be quite anathaemic to a Sith and actually seem to appeal conceptually more to a droning, calcified, hide-bound and emotionally inert Jedi.

The Jedi code doesn't heavily smack to me of being void of interpretable room for a lot of different perspectives, though I think whoever authored it was not trying so hard to create something that was anything other than a peg to hang philosophical story-importance upon.

I don't think it was devised upon to be a -good- philosophy that could stand up under genuine scrutiny without some very heavy points of disagreement in its own position coming into question.

And so I'm given to think, for my own self-amusement and indulgence in geekery (I play TOR after all; geekery is no badge of shame here, is it?), that the concepts of the Force as they're illustrated are actually best addressed by those, even in canon, that postulate that there is only the Force and different ways to use and relate to it.

The dark side frankly isn't; it's quite colorful, vibrant and voraciously energetic, none of which are qualities of darkness.

Granted, 'darkness' is almost certainly not a reference made to literal darkness, but rather to that which is more accurately described as negative emotion (which is still very pointedly not an absence).

Yet we never, ever in any source with which I am familiar see a Sith trying to break whatever chains they perceive by loving anything vehemently and passionately, or determining that it is joy that frees the mind and spirit and seeking to spread the casting-off of shackles and chains in all forms in preference of being absolutely happy.

Yet, it doesn't actually seem as though this would deviate from the Sith code. Peace is a lie they say, but what is peace? Apathy could easily be interpreted as a neutralizing form of peace. A void would be utterly peaceful in its absence of there being anything to cause any sort of ruckus at all.

There is no way to be passionally void of passion, however, and it doesn't add up under even mild scrutiny to envision desirous voids that want to consume all into nothingness; that would be a desire; a Something; and thus such a position would, by default, negate its own state or position, if not both, by being -capable- of desire in the first place.


So, I think it'd be neat to see, in time, Sith that go different routes of concluding just what sort of passion they will gain power and victory through.

Would hatemonger Sith long tolerate such a different element? Probably not if they could help it. It'd be just like people to aspire with increasing vehemence to conformity and sameness to points of it becoming a self-destructive and self-undermining spectacle.

This is all but readily acknowledged as being a recurring problem for both Jedi and Sith, in fact; the Jedi stagnate, go lightblind, corruption tears them apart and conflict (the very sort of thing they think to eradicate) propagates them anew. Sith Empires in canon more often tear themselves down than anything else ever could; Palpatine's Empire owes far more to its internicine conflicts and infighting for its fracturing than to the Rebellion's overtures.

If said Empire had been much less rife with the internal jockeyings and betrayals and acceptable degrees of petty, resource-wasting and vainglorious ego-pompery; if it had truly been an efficient and well-oiled machine tempered with efficiency-and-logic minded objectives, the Rebellion really would have been easily wiped out as the relatively insignificant and ragtag motely crew of barely structured resistance it was.


I suspect that all of these things are represented as they're represented chiefly for operatic plot purposes, of course. Once upon a time, George Lucas wanted to tell a story about harried Good fighting and ultimately winning against overwhelming Evil through the agency of a Prophecy Man (Anakin/Vader) and his bloodline.

Nothing wrong with that at all. Far be it from me to, in any of this, imply that it was 'done wrong' or any such thing; even if I were given to so thinking, the decades-spanning success of the IP would single-handedly prove me foolish for thinking it didn't work for what it was.

That is not my interest. However, when the lens of rational thought is applied...I see room for even more and far more elaborately Neat Stuff that could be explored. I'm a big fan of the expanded universe initiatives for frequently...at least attempting to explore some of that neat stuff.

I wouldn't say that all or even most of the expanded universe material is my idea of -GOOD- material, but that it is done and doable and allowed inclines me to think that SWTOR has got a lot of wiggle room it could capitalize on in just how broad and deep they could go in exploring a great deal of much.

And unlike a series of novels, they'd have cause to far in excess of what a single narrative could ever encapsulate let alone require.

So, here's to hoping that it is SWTOR that someday digs into the convolutions of these all-defining codes of mutual contention between the Sith and the Jedi.

I may get to see a Sith that's all about being fairly reasonable most of the time but loving, to at times highly unreasonable degrees, this or that or several things so much that its their own personal challenge in life just to contain it.

Or for that matter the Jedi that tries to go somewhere with a different way of seeing things in a continued evolution of the Jedi way itself (not in abandonment of it!).

This could all be superlative fodder for the support for Grey that's hinted and rumored to be coming, in fact.

Maybe I'll be quite pleasantly surprised to find, when more is known, that I wasn't the first to have ideas in such directions, or the interest in seeing something done with such ideas?

Here's to hoping!
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