UPDATE: 9/18/2012

BIOWARE has finally given us server forums. Thank you BW!

Also see: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=3500

Also see: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=173672

There has been a multitude of threads about the server forum topic. Today, we have been handed Bioware's solution to the server forum problem. So what's the issue? Simple, they have compiled a dozen servers into groups. For example: Group F-G servers have 9 servers piled up inside there. This quite simply does not work.

The problem, as laid out clearly in previous threads, was that communication was a major issue. Too many people, not enough space. That's the common phrase used.

Bioware's January 20th, 2012 solution to group servers by alphabetical order simply makes thing even more complicated. Customers now have to read through the mess of the new main server forum group area, and then figure out where their server is hidden. Once in their respective area they are forced into a gaggle with 8 other servers in addition to their own.

The new "groups" setup is still fresh, customers have not quite picked up on it yet and traffic is still slow. One can easily estimate that once "prime time" hits and after a few days of use, these 9-server-deep gaggle pitts will become as flooded as the original Guild Hall has been since launch.

Why are INDIVIDUAL server forums needed?

1. There are too many players on the forums as is and the game hasn't been out that long.
    
   
2. Threads become "lost in the sauce" within seconds of being created, generally regardless of section.
    
   
3. It's near impossible to communicate with same-server people
    
   
4. The Guild Hall was a disaster, now we have server GROUP forums which brings us back to square 1. No one wants to read recruitment threads for servers they likely will never play on, ever.
    
   
5. There is no way for players to trade/buy/sell items in game via the forums. Every MMO out there has this and it's all broken down by server.
    
   
6. There's a lack of esprit de corps for server communities, everyone is on their own playing in solo mode.
    
   
7. Some server GROUP forums have up to 9 servers rolled into them. That's simply unacceptable.
   

Server forums are essential to comradery within a MMO that carries multiple servers. Servers become their own little worlds with their own little social groups. People within those little worlds, generelly, only care about what is going on in their world.

Building a community that is required to divide in-game means you must facilitate a means to which the community can filter internally. "We" don't care about the economy on other serves. "We" don't care about PvP on other servers. "We" don't care about Guild X that's recruiting on the other server. "We" want to trade/sell/buy and communicate with people on our own server.

SWTOR is off to a good start, let's not tarnish the image so soon. Make things right and give us server forums!

EXAMPLE:

http://skylineownersusa.com/images/swgservers.png

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MY OFFICIAL RESPONSE TO THE MATTER

Dec 20th, 2011 12:47 AM EST

Greetings my fellow SWTOR players,

I would like to take a moment to thank all of you who have taken the time to provide valid feedback on this thread regarding the current issue at hand. Your comments and opinions DO matter and I appreciate your input.

While the Bioware Community/Support Staff have taken the time to finally comment on this issue in this very thread, I would like to note that I have personally taken the time to read each and every single response posted in this thread, even prior to Bioware removing a vast majority of them. I value everyone's feedback on this matter as I feel that the more responses we have listed here, the more Bioware will be forced to take action and correct the issue.

I say all of this with experience. I am presently the Support Manager for a large company in the industry and while I am just a simple customer here, I still feel it's my duty to do everything I can to see that this problem gets the attention it deserves and is corrected in a timely manner.

I do not wish to see SWTOR go without the necessary "tools" that it needs to be successful in the market. The best experiences I have with MMO's comes from the community, without all of you I would not have a reason to play.

There was a very good comment from another customer here, which stated that you cannot forge communities without server forums. Server legands cannot be born, history cannot be passed on, there's simply no identity to the game aside from the content handed down from Bioware, and that is not a MMO.

Once again, thanks to all of you who have provided valuable input on this thread. I'm hopful that we will see a resolution to this problem in the near future as we press forward to lobby for change.

Regards,

- Van

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SWTOR CUSTOMER FEEDBACK

Some helpful feedback from your loyal customers

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. The forums as they are at the moment are a complete eyesore, difficult to navigate, and threads constantly disappearing due to being [Moved] to wholly inappropriate locations. I make a PVE progression thread for my server, and it gets moved to the "Guild Recruiting" thread.... ***. Just leave well enough alone, give us individual server forums and get over it.

What a travesty. No one is using the server forums because they are a big joke. This is an absolute insult to the player community.

Doing this was a complete waste of everyone's time, the tech guys working on the forums and waste of mine having to tell you its not what we need. It is just common sense that this will not work.

Originally Posted by Gibbzter

Why not just make a forum for every server BW? Why all this BS, its like you guys are constantly trying to not do as much work as you should be. I don't think you guys know the importance of server forums in an mmo and how it can make communities last for years to come.

Originally Posted by HobbeWan

An MMO should be what it says on the tin.

 

A true MMO is designed for social interaction. This is primarily between members of a server to organise events, raids, compare views, tactics and keep score with other guilds. The moderator aspect is frankly something that should have been considered right at the beginning. Lets face it they have taken enough game designers from other MMO's to learn from that.

 

I would say that this game has a polished storyline, a lot of nice features, good playability but the usual bugs that you expect in an MMO at this early stage which I hope will be addressed as time goes on. There are so many established MMO's out there there is a limited time to compete before people start to return to what they know. Thats human nature.

 

The problem is that it is competing with many established MMO's that have a lot of features such as add-ons etc and most importantly a "WELL ESTABLISHED COMMUNITY".

 

If you dont allow that to flourish, your game is dead and you'll be lucky if you recover your development costs. Standing on a legalistic principle regarding forum moderation to maintain an unsatisfactory method of getting people to gel together is frankly suicide.

 

Corporations like to instill brand belief in their staff with a messianic voracity and often this overlooks the practical elements of developing a product that has to compete in a very competetive market. This can lead to a very blinkered view of comments and constructive criticism from the customers.

 

I like this game and have played many others including WoW Warhammer and LOTRO, I can bear with the initial problems and hope that sense will be seen sooner rather than later and I will continue with it until unless it becomes a worthless excercise. I like to finish what I start.

 

If you bring in a new MMO that you want to have a half decent lifespan you need to take all the above into account.

 

SWTOR may have its game design experts but there are many other experts in this game..... ie the ones who have been playing MMO's for years, have raided end content and know what a game needs to make them tick.

 

Listen to them...

Originally Posted by -Haldol-

There have been so many well worded posts, that I'll try to explain the need for a community with a different metaphor. What Bioware has done is no different than creating a co-op only game, except there is no way to find a partner, if you're solo, because there is a website but no forum or player matching system. In reality, Bioware's mistake is much more significant than my example. Granted this is a great single player game, and I hear they have good multi-player as well for those on a PvP server. But, my experience so far would be identical even if I was the only player on my server. Community can only be founded and then nurtured through server forum's. There is NO other way.

Originally Posted by Amnolith

You should NEVER use a third party forum besides your guild's forum.

 

Trust me I am also a Senior Community Manager and I can tell you that people use the exact same login for the games that they use on the same game website...at least the large majority does.

 

To not recognize this as a serious potential issue is un conceivable for a community manager. You have the choice between potential not monitored but secure forums or a third party that can grab passwords in plain text upon registration.

 

Once there what stops the server admin from selling these to the highest bidder.

 

You should be very very careful where you create accounts and for Bioware to not have individual servers forums and asking people to go to third parties is major facepalm material

 

Installing a script that will capture your passwords in plain text before hashing them is child's play.

Originally Posted by _BaconStrips_

The thought is nice but honestly there are already too many "unofficial" forums around and adding more will just further split up the community. But at this point who cares, there is no community anyways, so go right ahead. I want to love this game so much, but after spending weeks searching for a fitting guild for my needs on my server I gave up and spent almost 3 hours tonight on the forums searching. I even looked at pve and republic guilds and servers. There is just no way to look for any information about guild populations or what guilds are recruiting. The recruitment sections are the worst mashup of random information from all the servers, many guilds do not even post what server they are on. I already paid for 3 months but I am this close to just putting a hammer through my monitor. I am a lifelong gamer and MMO addict but this experience has started to sour me to the whole thing. Hell maybe this is a good thing, I hear RL have awesome server forums and when you get to end game you even get something called "sex". I will have to investigate it further.

Originally Posted by oredith

reason for canceling

 

Social Reasons

Feels too much like a single player game

Comment:

I absolutely love the game, which is why this is a tough choice.

 

the main/single reason why i'm canceling, is because of the lack of server forums. There are plenty of "unofficial" server forums, but those do not get the traffic that official ones do, and without official forums, i simply can not feel like i'm part of the community.

 

I hope Bioware changes the position on this, but until then, I'll enjoy the game until the 30 day period runs out.

Originally Posted by Mugaman

Great thread, by the way.

 

I actually have a problem with Bioware's arrogance when it comes to forum management. Claiming that server forums are rife with negativity is just plain ignorant. Are there numerous cases of server-forum drama and player/guild callouts? Yes, but that is what builds a server's community and contributes largely to player/guild notoriety. Most server forums are actually used constructively: guild recruitment, crafting discussions and transactions, guild progress, etc. Furthermore, most of the player/guild callouts are just playful competition and are part of the reason why MMOs are fun. Bioware's insinuation that server forums are cesspools filled with hate and grief is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

 

Server forums build community far better than in-game interactions or the current forum set-up. No community = no MMO experience = thousands of people ditching their subscriptions after they get bored of the single-player storyline.

 

We should all urge Bioware to create a cash cow instead of sticking with the current model (which is essentially a more expensive KOTOR and will not net the constant cash flow that they could have).

Originally Posted by Broom

I've been playing MMO since 2003 and I've been the leader of my guild (Fated) since 2004. We're one of those multi-game guilds that isn't easily categorized, since we pretty much do anything from crafting to heavy raiding to PVP. Since I'm usually pretty active in server politics and (pvp) event organisation, I think I have a fair idea of what makes a community. And in my considered opinion, server forums are essential. They allow people to still participate in the community from work, they give a place to coordinate social activities, PVE and PVP activities, and they give guilds a place to get to know each other.

 

SERVER FORUMS ARE IMPORTANT

COMMUNITIES ARE IMPORTANT

 

For the longevity of games, I'd even say a good community is essential. Many people keep playing or keep coming back because they miss the community. Going back and immediately fitting in with a group you belong to is a powerful incentive for playing.

 

And then we get SW:TOR. I'd describe this game as downright anti-social. The constant cutscenes make that there's hardly any guildchat or even region chat and that Ventrilo is quiet. Guild tools are pretty much non-existent. And there are no server forums.

 

In Pirates of the Burning Sea, this far into live we already had our National Councils up and running

In Warhammer, this far into live the guilds were already working on how to grab fortresses, even though those fortresses didn't even work yet

I never played AOC at launch, but AOC chat is more lively than SW:TOR chat… and AOC has a WAY smaller population

In City of Heroes, task force weekends, costume contests and PVP zone events are organised through the forums

In Aion, cross guild cooperation for capturing fortresses was again started in the first weeks after launch

In SW:TOR… uhm… I see some guilds which seem to be bigger than others, don't know squat about them though. Can't look them up either. But hey, no one's talking to anyone anyway. On the server where my guild goes for PVP, we know almost everyone. Why? Well, we're from the Bloodfin server in SWG, originally. Most of us left after the CU/NGE, but we've kept in contact all those years, first through the server forums, then through our own expatriate forums. Forum wars, feuds, smacktalking and all, we still hang together… and server forums were instrumental to that.

 

I consider the BW arguments that server forums would go unmoderated as bogus. Other games use volunteer moderators from the community, so can they.

 

Linna Baresi

<Fated>

fated.europefreeforum.com

Originally Posted by redtigershogun

I do feel quite offended by their excuses for not having them. Their resoning of not being able to provide proper moderation is absolute bs.

 

I mean really? You can't hire forum admins? You just moved what is estimated to be over 2 million units at a minimum of $60 a pop. Even if only half of those have subs next month, that's still an additional 15 million in your first month alone. Something tells me you could hire a freakin' army of forum moderators and you wouldn't have to sacrifice your tropical vacation to do it.

Originally Posted by Cryak

Consumer Behaviour 101:

 

Listen to your market and fill the gap

 

---

 

At the end of the day it is simply extremely bad business to try and tell your market what they want

Originally Posted by Senden

They're going to lose subscribers from this decision for sure.. there are many many many mmo gamers who love immersing themselves in their server community, getting to know people, guilds and such and it can keep them subscribed for a lot longer than originally intended

Originally Posted by Sgtcrispy

Unsubscribed due to this. Honestly, this game feels completely devoid of any social aspects. Why make it an MMO if it ends up feeling like a single player game? No chat bubbles makes it difficult to know who is saying what and when, 80% of the game being phased and instanced makes me feel incredibly alone and no server forums is the final strike for me. And their reasoning for such is completely asinine. I'd rather have a poorly moderated forum than none at all. "You guys can make your own though," also feels like a slap in the face.

Originally Posted by intristin

Server forums are required for any mmo. Re-Think this bioware, your making a mistake that will end up costing you money. People are drawn to MMO's with flashy content, but the reason most stay are community, guilds, and friendships. The guild forums you have right now are a nightmare, and adding the search function back will not make it any easier to promote or find a guild. Ditto for your events forum, another nightmare. Furthermore servers need forums to build community. Has the people who made this call ever played an MMO?

 

Give us server forums, we need them, we want them, what else is there to say? The pros of server forums vastly outweigh the cons, by light years....

Originally Posted by Bluestone

I do agree with this thread though, the guild hall is a train wreck, all those sub levels of sub levels of sub levels of forums is ridiculous and it is a pain trying to find other guilds on your server.

 

The whole guild hall needs to be removed and replaced with server forums. End of story as far as I am concerned.

Originally Posted by EclecticTastes

Yeah it seems very odd to me that there are no server specific forums.

 

That was the very first thing I looked for when the new forums came up.

Originally Posted by SidSpinmove

Hate to say it, but no server forums = no play. The Ahazi forum kept me playing SWG for years after I naturally would have quit.

Originally Posted by crackyhoss

absolutely!! the ridiculously high traffic on the general forums may just be due to the fact that most people aren't in-game yet... but it's absurd!

 

literally 30 seconds after i started a new thread, it was buried on page 3.

Originally Posted by Cormey

In the end it's good to have a forum where you can go to talk about issues that actually apply to the server(s) your playing on. I don't care if the economy is rooted or the sith outnumber the republic on servers i'll never touch.

Originally Posted by DarthMarisa

I can't reasonably expect my guild thread to get proper views unless I can move it to the right server. There's just too many threads out here.

Originally Posted by DullSeraph

This would most likely help with the overcrowding that is already starting.

Originally Posted by ViperI

I, too, would love to see seperate discussion forums dedicated to individual servers. In essence, it should be what the current community forum is, with all it's subforums, duplicated for each server.

Originally Posted by Starwitch

Its mind boggling to think they didn't add server forums.

Originally Posted by Anubrious

I wonder if the Community Management team realizes how not having realm/server forums will affect the community. I think that most people play MMORPG's because they want to play a game and interact with other people at the same time. I know I have made quite a few friends through online gaming. Without realm/server forums people have to use one of three different methods of finding guilds or people with common interests.

 

1) Come to the swtor.com forums and read through countless threads/pages hoping that they somehow actually find a post by someone from their realm/server and faction that fits the criteria they are looking for. This amounts to what I think most would consider taking up way too much time that could be spent actually enjoying the game that they are paying to play.

 

2) Use an outside source such as google, to try to search for guilds on their realm/server. This could be a very dangerous avenue for people considering the amount of spyware and hacking that is commonplace for gaming today.

 

3) Use the in-game chat feature to basically spam /LF guild. From my experience in MMO's this rarely nets good results. Most guilds that your average player would consider "good" don't normally respond to people spamming chat to find a guild. Most don't want to take the risk that the person spamming could be someone just looking to troll guild chat or "ninja" the guild bank. It usually is not worth their time while in-game. They would rather do their recruiting outside of the game, usually.

 

As you can see I have only listed cons to these methods because I do not believe that the pros come anywhere close to outweighing the cons in these situations. I understand that more forums require more Moderators and possibly server space but, I truly feel that it would be time and money very well spent considering I can't see it hurting the community. I can only see realm/server forums helping the community tremendously in the short and long term.

Originally Posted by Nefra

I was trying to look for a guild this morning and the forums are just a mess. Would be greatly appreciated if we could have server specific forums.

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BIOWARE'S RESPONSE TO THIS MATTER

Update: Jan 20th, 2012

From: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=173672

Hey everyone! You'll notice that the new Server Group Forums and the Suggestion Box are now available! We configured the Server Group Forums to require you to select a forum name tag for each thread, so there is no longer a requirement to enter your server name manually - you'll just select it from the drop-down menu when creating a new thread. Thank you all for your patience. We're looking forward to your feedback!

__________________________________________________

Update: Jan 13th, 2012

From: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=173672

Next week, we’re going to implement some changes to the Forums based on feedback we’ve received from the community. These changes are meant to help address some of the concerns the community has and to make Forums organization a little easier to use overall.

 

In the layout we have now, things like Guild Recruitment and Server Events are spread out and can be difficult to locate. We’ve also seen some requests for places on the forums where players can go to discuss things more closely with others on their particular server, and for a place for suggestions for the game. To start addressing some of these concerns, we will introduce a new forum section: Server Group Forums, and will place the Suggestion Box back in its rightful place under General Discussion.

 

The Server Group Forums will be divided by server type (PvE, PvP, RP, and RP-PvP), and then alphabetically by the server listing. We have grouped several servers of the same types together to provide areas where players can more easily talk with others on their server (and other players on the same types of servers) – about crafting items, grouping up, hosting events, and more. Each Server Group Forum hosts several servers. If your server’s name falls in the alphabetical range in the forum title, that’s where you’ll post!

 

Each Server Group Forum has a Guild Recruitment subforum, where players can recruit others into their guilds and look for a guild. There are many more subforums for recruitment in this organization than previously, so it will be much easier to find a guild on your server!

 

We ask that you please use a [server Name] tag in front of your threads in these forums when they open to make it easy to see when you make a thread that is specifically intended for other members of your server, and to make sure everyone can see relevant threads easily.

 

As a side effect of opening these new forums, we will close the Guild Hall and Server Events sections of the forum, as the content for those forums now belongs under our Server Group Forums. We’ll leave those forums visible for a time (but not open for posts) so that you can grab the text of your recruitment posts (or any other posts you’d like to keep from those forums) and post in the new Server Group Forums.

 

We will also add the Suggestion Box forum to create a place for constructive suggestion threads to live. We encourage you to share your ideas!

 

We understand that some players would still prefer individual server forums. If volume in the Server Group Forums dictates and it is still too difficult to locate information important to you that relates to your server, we will continue to consider additional changes. We believe this organization will allow us to have a thriving area for per-server discussion, and we’ll remain flexible and receptive to feedback from these changes. As always, if you have any other suggestions for the forums (new forums you’d like to see, changes that would be helpful), we’re glad to hear them. Thank you for providing your constructive feedback!

More: http://torwars.com/2012/01/14/social...rums-announced

__________________________________________________

Update: Dec 21st, 2011

Thanks to Dvius for taking the time to capture an official statement from Bioware in a 1 on 1 interview.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/12...-swtor-server/

Updated my article with interview with Allison Berryman.

 

http://tor-talk.com/community-fog-of-war/

 

Its time to speak up.

I am copying this article here for the sake of ease and so everyone can read it in black and white (or whatever catchy colors I randomly pick)

Dvius : We’ve repeatedly heard about the need for a strong server community as reasons for no dungeon-finder or cross server PvP queues and then Bioware has decided to go with communal server type forums instead of server specific forums. Can you explain some of the reasons or thought processes behind this decision?

 

 

Allison : We definitely want players to interact and build strong communities overall, but we also have a responsibility to provide moderation that ensures players have a good community experience on the official forums. Generally speaking, server forums for many MMOs tend to be largely un-moderated and can become unpleasant to visit. We do feel there is value in them for the community, in the form of player-run events, guild recruitment, and other ways to meet players who enjoy the same aspects of the game you do, so we’ve attempted to provide that in the official forums through our expanded Guild Hall and Community sections. This is also a great opportunity for the community to come together in their own ways – on fan sites and through other resources. Of course, we want people to visit the official forums, and will use them to provide information that’s of specific interest to the community, but we also love to see the community coming up with cool stuff on their own.

 

Dvius: David mentioned that hundreds of server forums wouldn’t be ideal. With the number of players requiring that many servers, do you feel that people might feel lost in the crowd of just PVE, PVP, RP and RP-PVP server forums?

 

 

Allison : We don’t think this is the case. The official forums definitely get a lot of visitors, and forums like General Discussion are extremely fast-moving, but we’ve found that many of the sub-forums tend to have a more manageable pace. The first few weeks are guaranteed to be hectic no matter where you are, but we think that many players will be able to easily find threads to participate in and keep up with.

 

Dvius : The community team as well as developers has made a lot of changes due to player feedback. Is this something that is capable of happening, or is there server or software limitations behind this?

 

Allison : There is room for this to change in the future depending on demands and our capability to provide good moderation coverage. We need to balance the amount of demand from the community against our ability to provide the level of service we’re committed to maintaining, and as the craziness of launch starts to subside, we may look at some different options or implementations if it becomes clear there’s a need to in order to serve the community.

 

Dvius: What path would you recommend for players that are in support of these servers take? We don’t need a million posts spamming the forums obviously.

 

 

Allison : We definitely want players to express their interest, and the forums are a great place to do that. We do already have a thread in the Community section about server forums (found here) and whether they’ll be implemented, and that’s a great place to express your thoughts on the matter (constructively, of course)! We will be reading it – in fact, we have Community Representatives assigned to the various forums to help us gather feedback, so no one should ever think that a thread that’s not in General Discussion will get ignored.

__________________________________________________

Update: Dec 19th, 2011

Hi there, folks. We've removed some posts from this thread and want to explain why. We understand the desire for server forums, but posts that only consist of "/signed" or "+1" are not constructive and are something we do not allow. Please make sure that all your replies help further conversation, as we don't allow petitions. Thank you!

Hi everyone! We wanted to explain a little more about why there aren't currently server forums:

 

While we absolutely agree that there are some useful threads and discussions that come from server forums, we have decided to not include them in our launch Forums lineup. Partially, this is because we do not feel we could currently provide the high standard of moderation, oversight, and maintenance in each of them that we aim to provide across the Forums.

 

Another factor is that, after observing server forums for other games, we feel that we can provide places on the Forums for the constructive content that typically comes from them while working to eliminate the extreme negativity of player callouts and other undesirable forum activity that can occur in them.

 

We now have several areas for guild recruitment and community discussion and organization, which we feel are excellent things that typically end up in server-specific forums. We encourage you to make use of all the Community Forums (especially the Server Event and Check-ins forums) as well as our expanded Guild Hall forums. Though the search feature is currently disabled, once it is restored it will be easy to search for guilds recruiting on your server (and we apologize for the inconvenience in the meantime).

 

Obviously, this is a decision we can re-evaluate as we receive community feedback, but we do encourage you to try out the sub-forums that we currently have to see if they meet your needs and desires for meeting other players. In the future, we may add additional sub-forums for various topics that require more space. We're always reading feedback and evaluating the needs of the community, and will continue to do so, so please do let us know what suggestions you have to improve the Forums!

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I often like to use the following as a great way to jog people's thought process on the ordeal.....

SWTOR customers are much like every-day use car shoppers. We've come to the used car lot of BIOWARE, where we're looking to buy a 2 door coupe. Bioware salesman walks up and tells you all about this 4x4 quad cab truck and how great it is. You simply responed with, I don't want a truck, I want that 2 door coupe over there. Bioware salesman comes back at you with, Well you see here, this truck would be better for you and you'll like it.

 

No matter what you say to the Bioware use car salesman, he is content with sticking to selling you the 4x4 quad cab truck, regardless that you've told him over and over that you want the 2 door coupe.

 

Eventually you leave the car lot with a 2WD, 2 door pickup because the Bioware used car salesman said the 2 door coupe wouldn't start and wasn't reliable.

 

that is a really good way of putting it actually, lol. Sounds about right!

I mean I don't really understand Biowares stance on this, why are they making it so difficult to connect with people you play with? I thought this game was supposed to be all about the community and customers!?

Yeah, it's all pretty rediculous. Just remove the server forums so that the players can get back to the game and play.

<ducks projectiles>

Yeah, it's all pretty rediculous. Just remove the server forums so that the players can get back to the game and play.

 

<ducks projectiles>

What I find quite odd is they went through so much trouble at early access to ensure the Guild Hall was divided up by regions, East Coast/West Coast/etc. yet this new Server GROUP deal is not?

So we could potentially have a mix of east/west coast servers bundled together in a group? What a mess

For a company that wants to push "community" they sure go out of their way to make doing so as difficult as possible.

It does seem so. I can understan reluctance to cater to everyone's "poor me" request thread for game changes but this right here has been an absolute trip since early access....as it's one of the most trivial things a MMO should have.

I was shocked that the new server groups were not sectioned by region, and recruitment on them is going to be a pain to say the least

at the moment, not only do we have guilds from several servers all advertising in the same section which means each post moves off of the front couple of pages faster, but we also have the looking for guild posters in that same board, meaning even more traffic thro that section.

add to that not being allowed to bump threads means unless you have a useful update to your thread you cannot get your advert to the first few pages that folks will bother to read thru, this might not be a problem for big guilds that are frequently gaining new members and therefore posting welcomes to them, but small guilds that dont mass recruit will not often have meaningfull comments to make (or at least it makes it harder to think of them)

currently to be honest i find their functionality offputting, as i see others do too

I hope I'm not the only one who's eyes hurt after a few minutes of trying to look through these server group forum sections.

I litterally can only stand to scan through the guild pages once or twice until I need to rub my eyes. The thread PREFIX just isn't cutting it.

Updated 1st post with more feedback from all of you. Keep it coming.

Everyone should realize at this point that lobby efforts DO WORK. Bioware didn't want to give us server forums at launch. We, the customers, voiced our opinions and eventually they changed their minds. Now it's once again up to us to voice our opinions and tell them to stop jerking us around and give us REAL server forums.

On my server group, all the community posts still fit on a single page and guild recruitment is 2 pages deep. Not every server needs their own forum, at least not yet. I would expect that we would see individual forums once the actual traffic on those forums justifies it, not the theoretical one that this thread is assuming. Suggestion Box was created because of the massive volume of General Discussion.

I hope I'm not the only one who's eyes hurt after a few minutes of trying to look through these server group forum sections.

 

I litterally can only stand to scan through the guild pages once or twice until I need to rub my eyes. The thread PREFIX just isn't cutting it.

I'm in the same server group as you. All posts in the last 24 hours are on the same page. The second page has only 5 posts. How often do you need to scan through the guild pages? Should we also add factional sub-sections to these server forums to make it easier on the eyes? I suppose you mentioned the Guilds section in particular since the community section doesn't have the volume to claim tired eyes. Take away the moved posts and guild recruitment ones which will probably eventually get moved, and there are 4 threads for the 9 servers, one of which was you posting that you made an individual server forum. If I were to count your website's posts as well while discounting the single advertising post, that would still only make 5 threads for 9 servers. I know, it's new and things start slow, but being melodramatic about the volume doesn't reflect well on the topic. My server has 1 community post, hardly justifies getting its own forum. If there's any group that deserves to have their individual forums first, it's the RP servers which are more community focused by intention than others. Their group has actual activity to talk about and yet they still have the last 24 hours of posts on the first page.

I'm not against individual server forums, it just feels like the topic of individual forums has gotten more posts than the actual community/server forums. It puzzles me at how much energy and hatred a few people are putting into fighting for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist yet. It certainly wasn't reflecting very well on the community when it was flaming the Server Groups idea before it was even implemented. I'm not talking about everyone who supports the idea, only the few people who were making the community look like entitled whiners unwilling to give anything less than their exact idea a chance.

I saw the Server Groups as an offer of Bioware holding out their hand to give something to the community to help them with their complaints, but because it wasn't exactly what the community asked for, the hand was slapped away like a spoiled brat throwing a temper tantrum (especially those who felt Bioware's offer was so poor that people should have been fired for making it). This isn't reflect at any specific post in this thread, but what I was seeing in the other threads on this topic, and possibly some of the posts quoted by the OP. I didn't read every single one. I don't think I saw a single "Thanks for making things a little better. We'll see if we can make it work, but we still want individual forums, especially once these groups get too busy which I think it will".

Some would argue that the overabundance and mix of cross-server posts in a single group would hamper a community from forming, but that first requires having the abundance of posts creating the noise. It hasn't stopped General Discussion from being very busy, but the noise did result in a suggestion box to help filter on volume.

I'm in favour of individual forums coming now. I'm also in favour of those forums being added on a case by case basis as the volume in the groups increase with the busiest servers getting their own forum and quieter ones continuing to share in a group. I would also suggest, since work was done to add a dropdown server tag when posting, that a similar dropdown server tag be shown when reading so posts can be filtered by server. This could help in the interim. I'm not in favour of exaggerating the problem.

I'm not against individual server forums, it just feels like the topic of individual forums has gotten more posts than the actual community/server forums. It puzzles me at how much energy and hatred a few people are putting into fighting for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist yet.

Your entire post here is nearly a direct copy paste from previous thread regarding vBulletin features missing.

Look, I've told you multiple times, read the thread. All the facts are there. Stop skimming and commenting on a few key points.

There's much more then a "few" people providing constructive feedback on the issue. This has been beaten to death since December 13th in 3-4 different threads.

Furthermore, customers are not using these GROUP forums because 1) we didn't ask for them and 2) we don't want to use them

I'm not as young as I once was. I've been there done that and now receive disability checks. I prefer things to be as easy on my eyes as possible. Trying to pick and scroll through pages of threads with server prefixes is not easy on the eyes.

You can continue to play Mr. Negative all you want on the issue but in the end the majority disagrees and you are still in the 10%.

And because you more then likely skimmed past it, I'll repost it for you to read here:

SWTOR customers are much like every-day use car shoppers. We've come to the used car lot of BIOWARE, where we're looking to buy a 2 door coupe. Bioware salesman walks up and tells you all about this 4x4 quad cab truck and how great it is. You simply responed with, I don't want a truck, I want that 2 door coupe over there. Bioware salesman comes back at you with, Well you see here, this truck would be better for you and you'll like it.

 

No matter what you say to the Bioware use car salesman, he is content with sticking to selling you the 4x4 quad cab truck, regardless that you've told him over and over that you want the 2 door coupe.

 

Eventually you leave the car lot with a 2WD, 2 door pickup because the Bioware used car salesman said the 2 door coupe wouldn't start and wasn't reliable.

 

If you're in favor of individual server forums then suppor the cause, don't go against it. No one is exaggerating the issue, the facts are clear and posted here. All Bioware's comments are posted here. A large collection of customer responses are also posted here.

Those are the facts, and they are undisputed.

I don't think I saw a single "Thanks for making things a little better. We'll see if we can make it work, but we still want individual forums, especially once these groups get too busy which I think it will".

And you won't find many, because customers didn't ask for THAT. Would you tell someone thanks for handing you a sheet of paper when you asked for an eraser? Or would you say thanks to someone who sold you a 4x4 quad cab that you don't need when you asked for a 2 door coupe hybrid?

Yeah, I'd say thanks....... thanks for wasting your time and my time.

I'm also quite sure the web developers are thrilled about having to make Change 4 to Change 3 of Revision 12 to Change 2b for the forum layout because management has no clue what their doing. I know my fun meter would be pegged.

Also, I'll give you a example to review and let brew for a few:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/forums/show.m?forum_id=3

http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=329

Which of those 2 do you think is easier to read?

Heck, forget the F-G area, just look at: http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=340

That's like trying to read Russian. It's a complete mess.

Not to mention that there's zero regional seperation now. You've got East/West Coast and Euro all lumped together in areas. I think the only ones who really can benifit from server group forums is the DE and FR servers because there's so few of them.

Your entire post here is nearly a direct copy paste from previous thread regarding vBulletin features missing.

I said nothing about features

Look, I've told you multiple times, read the thread. All the facts are there. Stop skimming and commenting on a few key points.

Told me what? I don't need convincing about individual forums. The only key points I comment on are the ones I feel are ones I should reply to. I'm not trying to shoot down the idea of individual forums.

There's much more then a "few" people providing constructive feedback on the issue. This has been beaten to death since December 13th in 3-4 different threads.

Yes, there is lots of great constructive feedback. My comment was targeted at none of those.

Furthermore, customers are not using these GROUP forums because 1) we didn't ask for them and 2) we don't want to use them

You're assuming. The best way to show to Bioware that individual forums are needed is to demonstrate there is an actual need, not to boycott them.

I'm not as young as I once was. I've been there done that and now receive disability checks. I prefer things to be as easy on my eyes as possible. Trying to pick and scroll through pages of threads with server prefixes is not easy on the eyes.

There aren't "pages" yet. That was my point.

You can continue to play Mr. Negative all you want on the issue but in the end the majority disagrees and you are still in the 10%.

I'm not being negative at all. I'm being quite optimistic. Quite the opposite, my post was targeted directly at the negative posts. From what I've seen of your posts, you've been quite persistent and determined with a lot of good work done in organizing your position. My only issue is that it just looks like you are exaggerating the problem.

The used car analogy just doesn't work because you are an individual providing feedback on a service that is provided to everyone. It's more like telling a used car salesman that you'll buy more cars if they sort them all by type & brand, but when they only sort the cars by type instead of brand, you complain that they're making it too hard to buy a car and it's providing a disservice to everyone else who wants to buy a car. Now, if the car dealer was operating a massive operation with a hundred thousand cars and hundreds of each brand, it would make perfect sense, but it's still only a small single lot operation with only 3 Dodge vans on the whole lot, and they're mixed in with 5 other vans from other manufacturers.

That's all I mean by exaggerated. The idea has been pitched, and once it grows, if they still fail to deliver on sorting, that's the time to scale up the effort in getting the change.

If you're in favor of individual server forums then suppor the cause, don't go against it. No one is exaggerating the issue, the facts are clear and posted here. All Bioware's comments are posted here. A large collection of customer responses are also posted here.

I haven't gone against the idea at all. I don't have to agree with everything said by every poster who is also in favour of the idea.

And you won't find many, because customers didn't ask for THAT. Would you tell someone thanks for handing you a sheet of paper when you asked for an eraser? Or would you say thanks to someone who sold you a 4x4 quad cab that you don't need when you asked for a 2 door coupe hybrid?

Your analogies are getting worse. A closer one would be asking for a pencil but being shown a box of unsharpened pencils instead. It can solve your needs, but requires a little extra work from you.

This is my constructive feedback, and it's targeted not at Bioware but at the pro-individual-forum-group: Demonstrate to Bioware that you need these forums, and my optimistic belief is that you'll get them. Bioware gave you server groups because they don't believe the community is big enough to support individual ones. Don't boycott the new servers because you don't like them, that only makes Bioware think they were right. From what I've seen so far on those forum groups, it sure does look like Bioware is right. Prove them wrong by using the server groups and creating a strong community that grows beyond what the groups can handle. Make those community posts fly off the front page in minutes, and you'll have Bioware on their knees begging your forgiveness that you didn't get those individual forums sooner. Actions speak louder than words.

I say the things I do because I am trying to help you get your individual forums. Nothing I have said will hurt your cause, because nothing I have said is news to Bioware. They have metrics & mods to filter out exaggerations & melodrama before being sent on to the devs. You say there's an issue, but Bioware looks at their metrics and says "we don't see it". The best way to get your forums is to generate the activity that will give Bioware the metrics they are looking for.

I still think a reasonable interim change would be to add a filter to the server groups. Choose the server in a drop-down you want to see posts for, and it hides the posts from the other servers.

The best way to show to Bioware that individual forums are needed is to demonstrate there is an actual need, not to boycott them.

Why should we, the customers, have to demonstrate anything considering this is due to Bioware's failure to provide a working solution? They created the problem, the burden is with them.

I'm not being negative at all. I'm being quite optimistic. Quite the opposite, my post was targeted directly at the negative posts. From what I've seen of your posts, you've been quite persistent and determined with a lot of good work done in organizing your position. My only issue is that it just looks like you are exaggerating the problem.

If I exaggerated problems then I wouldn't have a job at the company I work for, simple as that. I don't just preach out of my *** here, I say this stuff with experience in this very industry.

The used car analogy just doesn't work because you are an individual providing feedback on a service that is provided to everyone.

But it does work. I, like you and everyone else here, are CUSTOMERS. As customers we have demands. It's up to the business to supply those demands. A business can either satisfy the consumer needs and generate more revenue or they can ignore the demand and sink. I'm not providing feedback, I am organizing what's called Course of Action (COA).

I haven't gone against the idea at all. I don't have to agree with everything said by every poster who is also in favour of the idea.

By constructing posts like these you are indeed going against the idea. You don't have to agree but you are quite frankly adding more ammo to Bioware's arsonal to fire back at us all.

There's no "well I'm in between", you're with a side or you're not. Support or don't.

Your analogies are getting worse. A closer one would be asking for a pencil but being shown a box of unsharpened pencils instead. It can solve your needs, but requires a little extra work from you.

Again, see above.

Demonstrate to Bioware that you need these forums, and my optimistic belief is that you'll get them. Bioware gave you server groups because they don't believe the community is big enough to support individual ones. Don't boycott the new servers because you don't like them, that only makes Bioware think they were right.

Why should we have to demonstrate anything? We didn't ask to demonstrate, we asked for a very specific feature. Asking doesn't mean we need to demonstrate. Laying out a COA doesn't mean we need to demonstrate.

Bioware already demonstrated to the customers that their solutions didn't work. But you're saying it's up to us to demonstrate? No.

I say the things I do because I am trying to help you get your individual forums. Nothing I have said will hurt your cause, because nothing I have said is news to Bioware. They have metrics & mods to filter out exaggerations & melodrama before being sent on to the devs. You say there's an issue, but Bioware looks at their metrics and says "we don't see it". The best way to get your forums is to generate the activity that will give Bioware the metrics they are looking for.

You're still missing the point here. There's a method to the madness with lobbying. The more voices and complaints the more chance for success the movement has. People who sit on the fence and try to play both sides do nothing to help the cause.

December 13th we started with nothing. December 19th, they acknowledged the complaints. December 20th, they stated their stance on the matter. January 13th they recended their decision. January 20th they implimented Change 1.

Now you tell me, how is any of this exaggerating?

There is action and reaction. Customers spoke, action. Bioware made the change, reaction.

What we have now is unsat. More action to follow and thus a reaction will come with.

I still think a reasonable interim change would be to add a filter to the server groups. Choose the server in a drop-down you want to see posts for, and it hides the posts from the other servers.

That, I'm afraid, is just not currently possible in vBulletin. Extreme development efforts would have to be put forth to create that feature in vBulletin as a addon/plugin. It would prove to be more cost effective for Bioware to give the customers what they simply ask for.

This is not some off the wall feature we are talking about here, let's keep that in mind. We are talking about a INDUSTRY STANDARD. Server forums exist in every major MMO in the industry.

But it does work. I, like you and everyone else here, are CUSTOMERS. As customers we have demands. It's up to the business to supply those demands

The analogy fails because Bioware doesn't supply a product like a used car salesman does, it provides a service. The primary aspect of that service is the MMO. The forums are auxiliary and the community forums moreso. It's fine to want change, but seems silly to see players get riled up in hatred and demand people be fired for it.

There's no "well I'm in between", you're with a side or you're not. Support or don't.

Absolutes are for the Sith.

You seem to be taking what I'm saying very personal. It's not. As I've said before, most of what I was saying wasn't directed at you. Only the exaggeration part was directed at you, and I stand by it. The exaggeration I stated quite explicitly is insinuating the volume is beyond what people can manage. Twisting "exaggeration" to apply to other things you have said is dishonest. This is a metric Bioware can measure. They can see for themselves that there's no volume on the forums. Some of the quotes you have repeated have also made the volume claims as a reason. I don't see any indication at which of these posts are from before server groups, and you have chosen to repost & repeat them without any indication at which comments are now out of date.

You are reading far too much into what I wrote, and ignoring completely the meaning of what was actually written. Such a pattern of behavior will do more to destroy your credibility than anything I could ever do, or wish to do.

I support your goal and most of your methods, but I don't care for the melodrama. I'll not ignore what I don't like with a misguided belief that the ends justify the means. Reread my original post. I made it very clear what my position is on the issue in the final paragraph. My opinion & constructive feedback is just as valid as yours. I'm a customer too, and I also use these forums.

The analogy fails because Bioware doesn't supply a product

Wrong,

See, software sales in this industry include additional bits and bobs for the overall package you are purchasing. A customer pays "X" for "Y" giving them access to "Z". That's the product. The forums is part of the product.

You can debate service all you want, in the end it's a product. Bioware moderating the forums is a service. Providing technical support is a service. Forum access and use is a product. Customers are using the software (product) and forums (product). Bioware's daily functions to accomidate, support, administrate and moderate are services rendered.

How do I know this, again, I work in the industry.

You seem to be taking what I'm saying very personal.

That is where you are saddly mistaken. I deal with folks like you daily during working hours. Nothing new here.

You are reading far too much into what I wrote, and ignoring completely the meaning of what was actually written.

Funny, I seem to recall saying you're doing the same thing but rather skimming the post to pick apart key points for the sole purpose of debate.

I support your goal and most of your methods, but I don't care for the melodrama.

The only drama and exaggeration is that in which you seem to be trying to stir up. You structure your posts and choose your words to paint a picture that down plays the situation.

Additionally, there's no "out dated" responses here, as you noted. All responses and feedback from customers is valid, as we still do not have server forums. If we had individual server forums then everything would be solved and, of course, all comments would thus be out dated.

Thanks for the server forums Bioware

Much much much better