As my spreadsheet now fully supports all important stuff about dps Powertech, I decide to do a comparison. Note this is based on the latest version of my spreadsheet (you can find it on my signature). As a spreadsheet uses averages for everything, doesn't simulate real rotations, just uses average damages, average procs (estimated by simulations done by myself), and average rotations. If you don't like averages wait for a good simulation. Maybe I'll do one myself

 

As I'm tank myself, I used the stats I have with dps gear, that probably isn't the best out there. I don't think the relative values of the specs change much based on gear, but with tier bonuses can.

 

This is the gear I used and almost every build listed here from a screenshot of the spreadsheet:

 

DATA INPUT

 

BUILDS

 

4/6/31 - Full Pyro

 

Results

 

Full Pyro with Thermal Detonator. Thermal Detonator scales pretty well for a Kinetic skill. Rotation can't really use Flame Thrower, at least on average (probably will be situations when you wanna cast it anyway).

 

8/5/28 - Aim Bonus Pyro

 

Results

 

A build used frequently. Doesn't have Thermal Detonator but has +9% AIM. Doesn't seem to do better dps with my gear level at least. This build uses Flame Thrower on cooldown as a sustitute of Thermal Detonator.

 

8/31/2 - Full AP

 

Results

 

Full Advanced Prototype. Doesn't seems to do low dps on paper, and has the best heat control without almost no random component. Both AP skills scales pretty well.

 

2/21/18 - Pyro/AP Hybrid

 

Results

 

The best hybrid I could find. Has the Rail Shot 100% crit chance, and gets pretty much the best stuff from a non-full Pyro build (missing Firebug). Has good heat management as Rail Shot and Rocket Punch can be free, plus Pyro heat control. You can also get Hitman if you will never use the HE cylinder like next build.

 

2/21/18 - Pyro/AP Hybrid - High Energy Cylinder

 

Results

 

I did this one for fun . This build has infinite heat changing the Cylinder to High Energy. Does lower dps, but doesn't need to use Rapid Shots never unless a very bad luck streak.

 

21/2/18 - Tank build with Pyro

 

Results

 

The tanking variant popular on these forums. Does pretty good dps with Combustion Gas Cylinder and dps gear, and probably is the best feature of this build, being able to almost do competitive dps when needed. Remember that you get hit by a 6.5% extra damage when tanking as a counterpart.

 

RESUME

 

4-6-31          1215.35 DPS
8-31-2          1208.34 DPS
8-5-28          1190.28 DPS
2-21-18        1140.50 DPS
2-21-18 HE    1113.87 DPS
21-2-18        1074.03 DPS

Edited January 20, 2012 by MorningMusume

All your sheets have Ion gas cylinder but not combustible gas cylinder.

All your sheets have Ion gas cylinder but not combustible gas cylinder.

 

Don't mistake Gas Cylinder (DOT) that can be Combustible or Ion depend en active Cylinder with Ion Gas Cylinder (PROC) that must be 0 on all those builds.

 

I'll make it invisible on the next version

Edited January 20, 2012 by MorningMusume

Don't mistake Gas Cylinder (DOT) that can be Combustible or Ion depend en active Cylinder with Ion Gas Cylinder (PROC) that must be 0 on all those builds.

 

I'll make it invisible on the next version

 

So the DPS numbers for the hybrid were done in what cylinder? I have both sets of gear, dps and tank. I've been going hybrid to tank/pvp and respecing the full pyro for dps. But if it's only off 130 dps, i'd might not respec at all.

Everything is with Combustion Gas as gives higher dps, except the AP full build and the hydrid HE version.

5-5-31 1215.35 DPS

8-31-2 1208.34 DPS

 

 

Seeing only ~7dps diff between the 2 different dps trees for the AC... it almost makes me think BW knows what they're doing!

 

 

 

Any chance you have data on what the standard 31/8/2 shield tech tree does dps-wise (with same dps gear)? I'm just curious for comparison.

Any chance you have data on what the standard 31/8/2 shield tech tree does dps-wise (with same dps gear)? I'm just curious for comparison.

 

31/8/2 Tanking Heat Blast Build

 

960 with Ion Gas Cylinder (but if the boss have threat you'll have problems, as you'll overthreat any tank).

925 with Combustible Gas Cylinder.

 

Also is the only build where Unload is worth using, as we have enough heat and not enough skills to spam (Heat Blast is not worth it). Also IGC is the only Cylinder that is a proc on hit (Unload has 12 hits). Combustible Gas is only a DOT that you can renew the duration of.

 

Also about the balance, I don't think my spreadsheet is perfect, but I think Bioware tried hard to balance stuff.

 

For example, Thermal Detonator scales 2.42 with Tech Bonus Damage. Immolate scales 1.59.

 

But Thermal Detonator is kinetic, so is reduced by armor (around 30% for bosses), so scales ~1.694.

 

Also Immolate is increased by High Energy Cylinder, so 1.59 x 1.08 = 1.7172

 

1.694 vs 1.7172 seems pretty close. They get modified by different talents, but when you average everything they are suspiciously close.

Edited January 20, 2012 by MorningMusume

You feel the 3% extra damage on RS in shieldtech outweighs the 3%crit you get from prototype cylinders?

(4/6/31 compared to 5/5/31)

 

I've been using some different 28 point pyro builds, some with +aim talent, others with more focus on FB, but came to the conclusion that the difference in dps was minor on those builds.

Just switched to a full 31 pyro build since it has the best burst for fights like HM droid karaggas and Soa p3, but I was wondering if you had some input on what set bonus would be the best?

 

I used to go 4piece eliminator pvp for the 15% crit on RS (seeing as RS is an important component in a pyro spec) but change to Rakata/columi for the flat 8% RS damage bonus (and more overall aim on the set).

Edited January 20, 2012 by Dangerbob

You feel the 3% extra damage on RS in shieldtech outweighs the 3%crit you get from prototype cylinders?

(4/6/31 compared to 5/5/31)

 

I've been using some different 28 point pyro builds, some with +aim talent, others with more focus on FB, but came to the conclusion that the difference in dps was minor on those builds.

Just switched to a full 31 pyro build since it has the best burst for fights like HM droid karaggas and Soa p3, but I was wondering if you had some input on what set bonus would be the best?

 

I used to go 4piece eliminator pvp for the 15% crit on RS (seeing as RS is an important component in a pyro spec) but change to Rakata/columi for the flat 8% RS damage bonus (and more overall aim on the set).

 

Thanks! I found a bug on Prototype Cylinders crit. Was being applyed to every Combustible Gas rotation even if the talent wasn't taken. 1 point on Prototype Cylinder is better now than 1 on Intimidation. Also nerfs the build a bit, closing even more the gap with 8/31/2.

 

Eliminator is a bit better (averages Rail Shot at 2136.13 vs Rakata's 2082.88), but only is like 5 dps over the total dps, as Rail Shot is around 20% of the total damage. Also Rakata has a good 2T bonus so...

Also, I don't think that Pyro is that bursty really.

 

For example for P3 SOA, if you use IM you can't get full duration before the boss gets inmune again. Retractable Blade almost has the correct duration. Thermal Detonator = Immolate. And you can stack a 5 points Flame Thrower and do more than 5k with one cast with AP. Also you need to trigger Combustible Gas DOT at least 2 times for a good uptime during the knee-down. AP doesn't need that, the Cylinder is included in the skill damage anyway. And you can't trigger the Cylinder 100% without being at 10m anyway via Flame Burst.

 

You need to be at melee range with AP, but you move at +15% speed, and have a +30% sprint every 30 seconds.

5-5-31 1215.35 DPS

8-31-2 1208.34 DPS

 

 

Seeing only ~7dps diff between the 2 different dps trees for the AC... it almost makes me think BW knows what they're doing!

 

 

 

Any chance you have data on what the standard 31/8/2 shield tech tree does dps-wise (with same dps gear)? I'm just curious for comparison.

 

Sims != Actual Practice.

 

Until we get a combatlog / parser I wouldn't hang on to that "7 dps" difference.

I really, I mean REALLY want to believe that AP can keep up with pyro for dps, but I've tried both specs and can't imagine how you got them displaying similar damage numbers...PLEASE prove me wrong though, i hate pyro and love AP

I really, I mean REALLY want to believe that AP can keep up with pyro for dps, but I've tried both specs and can't imagine how you got them displaying similar damage numbers...PLEASE prove me wrong though, i hate pyro and love AP

 

I can't. The only way is to take a look at my spreadsheet and try to understand how it works, and maybe find weakness or bugs to fix it.

 

But looking at the scale factors of the skills I just can't see how AP can be horrendous dps anyway. I'll try to add more stuff to the original thread that helps understanding what's happening.

What about the 28 point pyro spec? Got any numbers on it?

Since that spec focuses on more FB's, which in the end, should mean more RS and could possibly outweigh the DPC TD offers.

 

Spcifically http://knotor.com/skills#AgMHBhyy09qhytszU1pqc4qRmqu6y9IA

 

You could of course dump the two points from steely resolve into 6% more damage on flame burst, but I feel with the rakata gear and eventually higher aim, you gain more overall from 6% aim.

 

Would be cool to have a comparison to this spec =)

 

EDIT: Did not see you updated the thread. =)

Edited January 21, 2012 by Dangerbob

That build seems to be almost equal to 8/5/28 on dps (~1 dps difference), on the low side for my gear, but probably better with less AIM on gear.

Am I blind or is there no link to the actual spreadsheet?

Did you include the effect of burnout or not in your spreadsheats? Because I imagine on targets with less than 30% the fully pyro spec would do a bit more damage (how much I'm not certain).

I can't. The only way is to take a look at my spreadsheet and try to understand how it works, and maybe find weakness or bugs to fix it.

 

But looking at the scale factors of the skills I just can't see how AP can be horrendous dps anyway. I'll try to add more stuff to the original thread that helps understanding what's happening.

 

Well tryin out the same spec on the same boss with the same group when using AP the boss enraged every time, as soon as I switched to pyro, no more enrage. all the evidence I needed sadly

Am I blind or is there no link to the actual spreadsheet?

 

Is on my signature anyway

 

The effect of Burnout is averaged already on the skills. But isn't that much, just Combustible Gas DOT and DOT portion of IM, combined are around 20-25% of the total dps, so increasing them by 30% is not a big number.

Is on my signature anyway

 

Oh is the tanking spreadsheet also used for DPS specs as well? I use that sheet all the time for mitigation and threat but didn't know it could be configured for DPS specs too

Yeah, I added all the stuff needed to dps spec to works. They are easier to model than tanking ones

What is the actual rotation you are using for the AP build? Do you differentiate if you are going against single/multiple mobs (like for example grinding through dailies against constant groups of 3 mobs).

 

Thanks!

What is the actual rotation you are using for the AP build? Do you differentiate if you are going against single/multiple mobs (like for example grinding through dailies against constant groups of 3 mobs).

 

Thanks!

 

All rotations are single target rotations, and sustained damage over a long period of time.

 

The AP rotation is the easier probably. Just use everything on CD: IMMO, RB, RS, RP and FP (including Flame Thrower even if you only have a couple stacks), balance Flame Burst with Rapid Shots for keeping heat in check, and try to maximize Rail Shot crits (try to never use RB/RP until you used a RS proc, unless you have to delay them 3+ seconds).

Edited January 23, 2012 by MorningMusume

All rotations are single target rotations, and sustained damage over a long period of time.

 

The AP rotation is the easier probably. Just use everything on CD: IMMO, RB, RS, RP and FP (including Flame Thrower even if you only have a couple stacks), balance Flame Burst with Rapid Shots for keeping heat in check, and try to maximize Rail Shot crits (try to never use RB/RP until you used a RS proc, unless you have to delay them 3+ seconds).

 

What's your rotation on the aim bonus one?

Keep always Combustible Gas active (via Flame Burst every 6 seconds if no Rail Shot proc), IM every 18 seconds, RP and FT on CD, and keeping heat on check using Rapid Shots alternated with Flame Burst (unless good luck with procs, the balance is around 5:4 in favor of more Rapid Shots).

 

Anyway rotations are pretty ideal with averages, when I finish my simulation program I'll be able to identify the best rotations and all nuances about them.