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One thing I hope Bioware NEVER copies from WoW

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
One thing I hope Bioware NEVER copies from WoW

nite_shade's Avatar


nite_shade
01.23.2012 , 08:28 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Thundan View Post
I also agree with OP - I was in a similar boat although I was a WotLK baby, I was hooked and in deep... until Dragon Soul came out. I was with a semi HC guild and we ripped through normal in the first week, the same as so many and then into Heroics 2nd week. I may be one of the few, but I personally don't value heroic modes that much...

I saw the content already... its got more HP and maybe a couple of new mechanics, that bumps my interest factor by a small amount, not really enough to get me jazzed though. I still like raiding with people but it just said to me that I had had enough of WoW. SWTOR came out and I continue to have fun levelling my 2 characters.

I hope that the challenge at 50 is of sufficient difficulty that you don't blast through it in a couple o weeks... although so far at least new content has been released. Thats more than that other company did to keep me interested. And yes. Even Ruby Sanctum counted.

In summary, I am a fan of new content over hard modes, and I like it to be challenging enough that it actually engages discussion over strats and a sense of accomplishment when defeating.

So far in the FP's I think Bioware has created excellent content, however... haven't really had much trouble in PUG's running through it as a point and click healer (which I never do!).

much love to you all
TV
I miss the hardcore days of WoW... I left WoW after they made it idiot proof, and all the elite kiddies moved in....

BW made a big mistake with SWTOR, it's to linear story driven, as much I love the stories. I'm playing Rift and I ACTUALLY feel as though I'm emerssed into an MMO. The environments feel like environments, things aren't static... SWTOR should have been KOTOR3, without the MMO label.

Don't get me wrong loved the game for a few weeks, and will keep my eyes on it... but Rift all the way for me at the moment.

Ohnoto's Avatar


Ohnoto
01.23.2012 , 09:02 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Whatsalightsaver View Post
WoW continues to alienate it's top performing players. I've just read about the first round of nerfs coming to Dragon Soul, by far the easiest and most faceroll raid of the entire expansion. I crap you not, a toddler without hands could down this raid. I cleared it on normal first week, moved on to Heroic Modes the second week, and left WoW by the third.

Blizzard has lost my support because they continually take the blistering challenge I enjoy and nerf it straight to hell, cheapening my victories and sucking out all of the fun of raiding for me. Firelands heroics were challenging and fun until massive nerfs made them insultingly easy.

Bioware, I understand that content has to be accessible to everyone on some level or it's a waste of your time and money to develop. However, there HAS to be something for the best of the best. There HAS to be something to challenge very competent players that they can take pride in and think "yeah, I did that. That was sick." I left WoW after six years because of constant decisions made by blizzard this expansion to cater exclusively to casual players.

Don't get me wrong, I think there should absolutely be content for players who "just want to have fun and not stress". There should be raids for such people, in fact. I have no problems whatsoever with game companies nerfing and tweaking their normal mode content until almost everyone can see it. What happened with WoW though is it took it's "elite" content, the heroic modes, and nerfed them as well. No hard mode raider is EVER happy with nerfs like that. They raid the hardest stuff for the challenge, for the prestige, and for the rewards. You take away that challenge through nerfs and your best players have nothing to do or care about.

Don't cheapen your content across the board. Leave something for all types of players to enjoy. There needs to be modes for bad (though they won't admit it), good, and truly exceptional players.
The real issue here is not that they are nerfing the content. The real problem is that they are not designing raids properly. It is something Bioware should notice, and make sure that they don't do with Operations.

The change in this occurred because of Sunwell. Sunwell was extremely well done from the developers stand point, however less than 5% of the player base even walked into the portal for the raid. Less than 1% killed Kil'Jadean.

It was after Burning Crusade that Blizzard stated that they wanted to make end game content more accessible to everyone. This is what lead to the massive heading out of epic during Lich King, and now to the Looking for Raid system.

Having content accessible to everyone is not a bad thing, and I think that a three tiered system can work, being Normal, Hard, Nightmare modes. However, the fights, as they increase in difficulty should also have varying strategy, not just increase health and damage. Let the casual player base see the content through normal mode, let regular guilds be able to handle hard mode in an organized fashion, and give the hardcore progression guilds something to be proud of that they accomplished and I think this makes everyone happy.

Hopefully content comes out bug free, but issues do occur once patches go live, it happens in all games. With that said, once the content is released, only apply bug fixes. Make sure it is tuned properly before release and don't make it easier because some are having trouble with it. That's why there are three difficulty modes, so it doesn't need to be nerfed.
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leihn's Avatar


leihn
01.23.2012 , 09:49 AM | #23
It's the end of the expansion and they introduce a TOGGLE buff for the zone that is 100% optional to allow people who maybe were underperforming slightly to complete certain encounters if they want to.

As someone who's consistently completed dungeons pre-nerf dating back to TAQ when you literally couldn't kill C'Thun, I really don't have a problem with this.

Quite honestly, you would like there to be a casual, normal, and hard difficulty to each encounter but that ties up valuable resources designing three versions of the same encounter that could've been spent designing three different encounters instead.

The rate of content release to prevent capping your most serious players is probably more important than consistently implementing easier difficulties of the content when you can always introduce flat nerfs/buffs (optional or not) later on for accessibilities sake.

Ohnoto's Avatar


Ohnoto
01.23.2012 , 10:02 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by leihn View Post
It's the end of the expansion and they introduce a TOGGLE buff for the zone that is 100% optional to allow people who maybe were underperforming slightly to complete certain encounters if they want to.
Even if it is optional the question comes in of "Why wouldn't you use it?". What's the point of making a buff optional? I'm sure there are some extremely small group of people that would go in and say "Nope, don't get the buff, we don't need it.", but again, why wouldn't you get it if it's going to make you get through content quicker.
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leihn's Avatar


leihn
01.23.2012 , 10:22 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Ohnoto View Post
Even if it is optional the question comes in of "Why wouldn't you use it?". What's the point of making a buff optional? I'm sure there are some extremely small group of people that would go in and say "Nope, don't get the buff, we don't need it.", but again, why wouldn't you get it if it's going to make you get through content quicker.
Half the argument in this thread has been about people being DEPRIVED of the CHALLENGE of the original content.

That's why toggle buff/nerfs are way better than flat buff/nerfs.


If you want the challenge, you can still get it (but I'm betting that most people cheat).

Gabriah's Avatar


Gabriah
01.24.2012 , 12:19 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Praetorian_DK View Post
was DIFFICULT - took us months of boss/gearing up
I hope I never see this in SWtOR. Difficult should be overcome with clever tactics, solid gameplay, good teamwork - not by farming gear. I want this to stay a RPG played out in a mmo setting - not an Star Wars flavered MMO fight game.

I hope BioWare adds more story arcs, and other in-game-content (Sabacc anyone?), before trying to copy what other MMOs have been doing for the past 15 years.

Leohat's Avatar


Leohat
01.24.2012 , 09:27 PM | #27
On one side is the "hard core" that needs challenging content. They have the time to raid multiple nights per week. They have the time and patience to grind for rep, to grind for mats. They have preset groups to help with group quests. They know where the quest areas are, they know where the quest givers and receivers are. They know what the boss mechanics are. They say that content is too easy and lacks challenge. For them, that is indeed the case.

I wonder how much of the problem is that players have actually gotten better. I'm betting that players are used to see certain kinds of Boss mechanics. They are used to seeing bosses summon adds at certain times, they are used to void zones, enrage timers, multiple phases, etc etc ad nauseous. Basically a 'nothing new under the sun' problem.

I read somewhere that one reason that they are able to blow through content so quickly is that a lot (most?) of them have already done the content, when it was in beta. In some cases they have done it multiple times in beta.
So when live comes out they appear to have blasted through it. So they have already had weeks if not months working on content. So it appears that they blasted but in reality they have not.
I'm curious, of those of you that are complaining about endgame being easy, how many of you were in the beta or early-access? I'm betting a lot.
Of those of you that have multiple 40+ how many were in Beta? I'll bet a lot if not most.

I don't remember all the details but I recall a MMO (not wow) that pulled a 'bait and switch' on one or more of the end game raids. The raid that was in beta was completely different then the live raid. It took even the hard core guilds a few weeks to master it. I think that it was EQ2 but don't quote me on that.

The other side is the "causal" that does not have the time or the patience to raid often, if at all. I fall in to this category. I don't have the time or energy to raid more than once a week if that. I don't have the time or energy to grind rep for raid level gear. We may enjoy the game in other ways, such as collecting mounts or pets or achievement metals but not raid kills. My complaint is that the story line is build in to the end game raids. Because I can't raid, I never get to see the end of the story. Personally I like to see some sort story wrap up for non-raiders. If nothing else some kind of end game cinematic.

There needs to some sort of compromise; p

A possible compromise may be server segmentation. Instead of just PvE/PvP/RP servers, they should be farther segmented as hardcore vs casual.

Maybe a solution could be a permanent choice, like the Advanced Class choice. At 50 you'd choice hardcore or casual and that would be it.

Personally I'd like to see raids/bosses scale, some sort of variation of City of Hero's Monster mechanic that automatically scaled damage by level. The CoH sidekick/mentor mechanic was also pretty cool. Too bad that game is one massive grind fest.

Maybe Automatic scaling of bosses based on gear (ilvl?), with token drops reflecting difficultly, higher gear, higher difficulty thus more/higher tokens.

Maybe scaling of bosses based on average DPS of other bosses/trash. Again with token drop would reflecting how far above or below the average the group is. This could have some interesting side effects, such as groups trying to sandbag it to bring down the bosses average. How low of DPS can you do and still kill the boss aka how long can you stand the bosses enrage? Of course then you might get really hardcores trying to drag the average up. Might be especially interesting if the current average is unknown. Might be an easy fight one day and a wipe fest the next.

I think that as others have pointed out that some kind of visual epeen reward is needed.

tl;dr
I'm not sure where the middle is but both sides are right.
A compromise is needed. Or possible segmentation of the two.

Skann's Avatar


Skann
01.24.2012 , 11:44 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Whatsalightsaver View Post
WoW continues to alienate it's top performing players. I've just read about the first round of nerfs coming to Dragon Soul, by far the easiest and most faceroll raid of the entire expansion. I crap you not, a toddler without hands could down this raid. I cleared it on normal first week, moved on to Heroic Modes the second week, and left WoW by the third.

Blizzard has lost my support because they continually take the blistering challenge I enjoy and nerf it straight to hell, cheapening my victories and sucking out all of the fun of raiding for me. Firelands heroics were challenging and fun until massive nerfs made them insultingly easy.

Bioware, I understand that content has to be accessible to everyone on some level or it's a waste of your time and money to develop. However, there HAS to be something for the best of the best. There HAS to be something to challenge very competent players that they can take pride in and think "yeah, I did that. That was sick." I left WoW after six years because of constant decisions made by blizzard this expansion to cater exclusively to casual players.

Don't get me wrong, I think there should absolutely be content for players who "just want to have fun and not stress". There should be raids for such people, in fact. I have no problems whatsoever with game companies nerfing and tweaking their normal mode content until almost everyone can see it. What happened with WoW though is it took it's "elite" content, the heroic modes, and nerfed them as well. No hard mode raider is EVER happy with nerfs like that. They raid the hardest stuff for the challenge, for the prestige, and for the rewards. You take away that challenge through nerfs and your best players have nothing to do or care about.

Don't cheapen your content across the board. Leave something for all types of players to enjoy. There needs to be modes for bad (though they won't admit it), good, and truly exceptional players.
Have you cleared the current WoW content in Hard Mode? All of it?

chalonverse's Avatar


chalonverse
01.25.2012 , 01:20 PM | #29
You are lying when you claim you cleared Hard Mode Dragon Soul the 2nd week it was out. Because no one in the entire world cleared hard mode Dragon Soul the 2nd week it was out. Not on 10, not on 25. It was the 3rd reset that anyone cleared it. And unless you're in the top three guilds in the world, you didn't clear it on the 3rd reset either.

Furthermore, at this point, less than 100 guilds in the entire world have cleared Dragon Soul on Hard Mode. The patch came out like 2 months ago.

Compare this to SWTOR where people cleared Nightmare Karagga's Palace the first day of the patch, and I don't think you can really say SWTOR raids are harder than the WoW ones.

EpsilonC's Avatar


EpsilonC
01.25.2012 , 01:54 PM | #30
First of all, WoW raids have had some of the hardest bosses the game has EVER seen.

T11 was considered the hardest tier of content made by WoW, including vanilla.

Heroic al'akir, nef, and twilight council were some of the hardest bosses ever seen, then you have sinestra, that's all tier 1.

Then in t12 the only really hard boss was Heroic Rag, but he was still one of the harder bosses WoW has ever had.

And now you have heroic spine and DW, which are again, two of the hardest bosses WoW has ever produced.

You cleared dragon soul 8/8 first week? Well guess it, that's because it's geared towards NORMAL FIRELANDS geared players. If you're geared in heroic firelands gear, you're obviously going to blow through it.

Lastly, why does it alienate the top end players? You realize that there are MANY top end players that can't clear content simply because they don't have time? Many world top end guilds put in at least 20 hours a week, and as many as about 50 hours a week raiding each week, and it takes them usually hundreds of pulls to down the hardest bosses.

So why should elite players that can't put in 50 hours a week be unable to see content? It's a game, not a godamn job.

Furthermore, even after all the nerfs to Firelands, around 5% of the raiding guilds have down heroic ragnaros.