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One thing I hope Bioware NEVER copies from WoW

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
One thing I hope Bioware NEVER copies from WoW

Whatsalightsaver's Avatar


Whatsalightsaver
01.20.2012 , 10:22 AM | #1
WoW continues to alienate it's top performing players. I've just read about the first round of nerfs coming to Dragon Soul, by far the easiest and most faceroll raid of the entire expansion. I crap you not, a toddler without hands could down this raid. I cleared it on normal first week, moved on to Heroic Modes the second week, and left WoW by the third.

Blizzard has lost my support because they continually take the blistering challenge I enjoy and nerf it straight to hell, cheapening my victories and sucking out all of the fun of raiding for me. Firelands heroics were challenging and fun until massive nerfs made them insultingly easy.

Bioware, I understand that content has to be accessible to everyone on some level or it's a waste of your time and money to develop. However, there HAS to be something for the best of the best. There HAS to be something to challenge very competent players that they can take pride in and think "yeah, I did that. That was sick." I left WoW after six years because of constant decisions made by blizzard this expansion to cater exclusively to casual players.

Don't get me wrong, I think there should absolutely be content for players who "just want to have fun and not stress". There should be raids for such people, in fact. I have no problems whatsoever with game companies nerfing and tweaking their normal mode content until almost everyone can see it. What happened with WoW though is it took it's "elite" content, the heroic modes, and nerfed them as well. No hard mode raider is EVER happy with nerfs like that. They raid the hardest stuff for the challenge, for the prestige, and for the rewards. You take away that challenge through nerfs and your best players have nothing to do or care about.

Don't cheapen your content across the board. Leave something for all types of players to enjoy. There needs to be modes for bad (though they won't admit it), good, and truly exceptional players.
My other Jedi Consular is a panda.

Gustomucho's Avatar


Gustomucho
01.20.2012 , 10:34 AM | #2
TL;DR version : Don't make flashpoint easy sauce.

Battyone's Avatar


Battyone
01.20.2012 , 10:41 AM | #3
OPs reason slightly different timing (nerfing heroic Rag and then all the H:FL bosses).

This would be like Konami released a patch to Contra that let you take hits before dieing, except it somehow got to every nintendo cart and the real game as the programmers intended is gone forever. (Yes I know bad analogy, but contra was a good game that was hard that would have been ruined by being nerfed...)
Amistar Nelmarra -- 55 Sage, Ebon Hawk <The Azure Blades>
I stream my bad gameplay.
Come watch the Fat Man rageth on Twitch!

Slackfumasta's Avatar


Slackfumasta
01.20.2012 , 10:45 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Whatsalightsaver View Post
WoW continues to alienate it's top performing players. I've just read about the first round of nerfs coming to Dragon Soul, by far the easiest and most faceroll raid of the entire expansion. I crap you not, a toddler without hands could down this raid. I cleared it on normal first week, moved on to Heroic Modes the second week, and left WoW by the third.

Blizzard has lost my support because they continually take the blistering challenge I enjoy and nerf it straight to hell, cheapening my victories and sucking out all of the fun of raiding for me. Firelands heroics were challenging and fun until massive nerfs made them insultingly easy.

Bioware, I understand that content has to be accessible to everyone on some level or it's a waste of your time and money to develop. However, there HAS to be something for the best of the best. There HAS to be something to challenge very competent players that they can take pride in and think "yeah, I did that. That was sick." I left WoW after six years because of constant decisions made by blizzard this expansion to cater exclusively to casual players.

Don't get me wrong, I think there should absolutely be content for players who "just want to have fun and not stress". There should be raids for such people, in fact. I have no problems whatsoever with game companies nerfing and tweaking their normal mode content until almost everyone can see it. What happened with WoW though is it took it's "elite" content, the heroic modes, and nerfed them as well. No hard mode raider is EVER happy with nerfs like that. They raid the hardest stuff for the challenge, for the prestige, and for the rewards. You take away that challenge through nerfs and your best players have nothing to do or care about.

Don't cheapen your content across the board. Leave something for all types of players to enjoy. There needs to be modes for bad (though they won't admit it), good, and truly exceptional players.
Big deal. I cleared Dragon Soul long ago, I cleared Firelands before the nerf, I cleared BWD/Chogall/ToTFW before they nerfed those, and I don't care that they later nerfed them. Let the unwashed masses in to clear them, it doesn't change my game one bit, because by the time they nerfed those areas, we were done with them.

I understand that some people can't raid the current content successfully. Yes, some of them are bad gamers, but many of them don't have the time to devote to games that you or I do. It's a good thing that they can still accomplish things in the game even though they have to wait - it keeps people playing which keeps new content and new games coming.

Spatter's Avatar


Spatter
01.20.2012 , 10:46 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Whatsalightsaver View Post
WoW continues to alienate it's top performing players. I've just read about the first round of nerfs coming to Dragon Soul, by far the easiest and most faceroll raid of the entire expansion. I crap you not, a toddler without hands could down this raid. I cleared it on normal first week, moved on to Heroic Modes the second week, and left WoW by the third.

Blizzard has lost my support because they continually take the blistering challenge I enjoy and nerf it straight to hell, cheapening my victories and sucking out all of the fun of raiding for me. Firelands heroics were challenging and fun until massive nerfs made them insultingly easy.

Bioware, I understand that content has to be accessible to everyone on some level or it's a waste of your time and money to develop. However, there HAS to be something for the best of the best. There HAS to be something to challenge very competent players that they can take pride in and think "yeah, I did that. That was sick." I left WoW after six years because of constant decisions made by blizzard this expansion to cater exclusively to casual players.

Don't get me wrong, I think there should absolutely be content for players who "just want to have fun and not stress". There should be raids for such people, in fact. I have no problems whatsoever with game companies nerfing and tweaking their normal mode content until almost everyone can see it. What happened with WoW though is it took it's "elite" content, the heroic modes, and nerfed them as well. No hard mode raider is EVER happy with nerfs like that. They raid the hardest stuff for the challenge, for the prestige, and for the rewards. You take away that challenge through nerfs and your best players have nothing to do or care about.

Don't cheapen your content across the board. Leave something for all types of players to enjoy. There needs to be modes for bad (though they won't admit it), good, and truly exceptional players.
Good post and I agree. However at this point, all difficulty levels of the raids are too easy. The fact that EV and KP have been completely cleared by my guild in Nightmare mode in two days is ridiculous. And this is not me boasting, this is me saying that the stuff in this game is already too easy. Maybe we're all just used to the same ol' boss mechanics we've seen in WoW, but when the only difference in modes is basically how much health the bosses have, it's no wonder a lot of guilds are going to be farming boss mounts over the next couple weeks.
You're all a bunch of nerds.

Whatsalightsaver's Avatar


Whatsalightsaver
01.20.2012 , 10:47 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Gustomucho View Post
TL;DR version : Don't make flashpoint easy sauce.
This is not actually what I'm saying. What I'm saying is there needs to be a normal and hard mode of flashpoints/raids/future content and one is allowed to be tweaked until everyone can see it, and one needs to remain as difficult as the developers originally intended.
My other Jedi Consular is a panda.

Lowenblade's Avatar


Lowenblade
01.20.2012 , 11:56 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Whatsalightsaver View Post
WoW continues to alienate it's top performing players. I've just read about the first round of nerfs coming to Dragon Soul, by far the easiest and most faceroll raid of the entire expansion. I crap you not, a toddler without hands could down this raid. I cleared it on normal first week, moved on to Heroic Modes the second week, and left WoW by the third.

Blizzard has lost my support because they continually take the blistering challenge I enjoy and nerf it straight to hell, cheapening my victories and sucking out all of the fun of raiding for me. Firelands heroics were challenging and fun until massive nerfs made them insultingly easy.

Bioware, I understand that content has to be accessible to everyone on some level or it's a waste of your time and money to develop. However, there HAS to be something for the best of the best. There HAS to be something to challenge very competent players that they can take pride in and think "yeah, I did that. That was sick." I left WoW after six years because of constant decisions made by blizzard this expansion to cater exclusively to casual players.

Don't get me wrong, I think there should absolutely be content for players who "just want to have fun and not stress". There should be raids for such people, in fact. I have no problems whatsoever with game companies nerfing and tweaking their normal mode content until almost everyone can see it. What happened with WoW though is it took it's "elite" content, the heroic modes, and nerfed them as well. No hard mode raider is EVER happy with nerfs like that. They raid the hardest stuff for the challenge, for the prestige, and for the rewards. You take away that challenge through nerfs and your best players have nothing to do or care about.

Don't cheapen your content across the board. Leave something for all types of players to enjoy. There needs to be modes for bad (though they won't admit it), good, and truly exceptional players.
When I first read your topic title, I thought *oh great, another one of those...,* but after reading your post, I agree with what you said. SWTOR is better served if the game has content for all styles of players, including people that like to accomplish very challenging missions, instances, and raids. Like you, I think the "normal mode" should be designed with the average in mind and tuned to a level where the vast majority of players can do them, but "heroic" should be just that, heroic.

Manathayria's Avatar


Manathayria
01.22.2012 , 02:53 PM | #8
I don't mind the nerfs, and here's why.

Hardcore raiders get in, they get their gear, finish their hardmodes and then eventually move on to the bigger badder bosses.

Players that're casual, don't have the time to dedicate to the game (and often are just as good as the 'elite') get into the hardmodes after the nerfs. They paid for the content. They got their 'easy' raid done, they want to do the harder stuff, if you block them from seeing those fights, and their changed mechanics, eventually that casual player leaves - and takes his buddies with him.

You might not see an issue with this, but when those casual players hit that wall of 'we can't get into end game content, we have nothing left that we can achieve' and leave.... the company loses money. When they lose those subs, they make less, have less to put into developing new content for you.

Those "unwashed masses" as you so rudely put it are the ones that in reality pay the majority of your bills to keep the MMO running. Like it, love it or hate it, you need them in place or you'll see the game start to die. That's what WoW realized and that's why they kept nerfing things steadily after the content was initially released each time.

Discussion about LFD: to include cross server with server only option: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=279017 Also, for info on current tool: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=224095

Praetorian_DK's Avatar


Praetorian_DK
01.22.2012 , 05:01 PM | #9
Its obviously for economical reasons they "dumb down" content so even the 6 year olds can do it. Personally im fine with having the hardcore players have content available to them that the casuals dont. If you want to get anywhere in life (and in gaming) it requires commitment. If casuals dont want to put the time in, they can find another game if they feel cheated out of content access. There are plenty of no skill "free" MMOs out there they can play instead. Everyone should learn that things arent spoonfed them in this world. If you arent good enough to beat the hardcore content, well thats that. Train harder, get better gear or simply accept there are things in this game you wont be seeing.

I would also like to say that personally i have never since felt the level of accomplishment i had after my guild took down Ragnaros for the first time (back in vanilla wow). I would give just about anything to have a shot at getting that feeling again somehow in SWTOR. I doubt it will happen. But that was DIFFICULT - took us months of boss/gearing up progression - hence the feeling of accomplishment!

So yeah, dont dumb down content just so the whiny casuals can get to see "everything". Its what also helped me leave WoW in the first place. Everytime you felt you had done something special, a patch would come and make whatever accomplishment you just did feel pretty much useless.

Tsukigato's Avatar


Tsukigato
01.22.2012 , 05:11 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Slackfumasta View Post
Big deal. I cleared Dragon Soul long ago, I cleared Firelands before the nerf, I cleared BWD/Chogall/ToTFW before they nerfed those, and I don't care that they later nerfed them. Let the unwashed masses in to clear them, it doesn't change my game one bit, because by the time they nerfed those areas, we were done with them.

I understand that some people can't raid the current content successfully. Yes, some of them are bad gamers, but many of them don't have the time to devote to games that you or I do. It's a good thing that they can still accomplish things in the game even though they have to wait - it keeps people playing which keeps new content and new games coming.
Rofl at this comment. While we may have cleared all of it prenerf (And pre-nerf real bosses too, at that), doesn't mean that there aren't people out there that were still progressing on the content at the time of the nerf that would have rather not had their challenge taken away from them.