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Bad PVE Class balance


Tohrazer's Avatar


Tohrazer
01.19.2012 , 02:24 PM | #1
Hi, im here to make a constructive post and hear your thoughts regarding my opinions within:

that said! lets get onto my concerns:

Tanking, why oh why would i bring a melee tank when i could bring a ranged tank? as a Guardian i honestly feel like im gimping my group by being there, now i want to clarify that i am NOT saying guardians cant tank, i have cleared all the raids normal modes and done alot on hard, it hasnt been too much of a problem, its not that its impossible, its that its not OPTIMAL, for example on the rancor, why the heck would you bring a melee tank that can get flung into the acid the second he turns around and takes a dislike to you, where as you can effectively kite him and maintain constant damage as a vanguard for example.

The turrets on the annihilator droid is another great example, how on earth am i supposed to maintain aggro on those things? i cant even hit them, attacking the power generators at their base seems to generate no aggro, all i can do is blade storm it every cooldown and force push/stasis, its not enough - we actually tank these now with a DPS shadow, its laughable

which brings me on to another thing, shadow tanks fundementally generate much more threat than guardian tanks, because they do much more damage and get the same threat bonuses, not to mention they have a much easier time of kiting bosses around that need to be moved, because they can maintain aggro from range (soa, the second to last boss in kiraggas palace, etc)

why dont guardians get extra aggro on force sweep? AOE tanking is practically impossible for us, or extra threat on guardian slash? or something?


Now, im not simply unhappy with my class, there are a ton of other issues - from what i can tell Sorceror/sages are by far and above the BEST (bar non) healing and possibly also DPS for Pve, on Soa for example when jumping down the falling platforms, if you dont have a sage its going to be really hard, heck its a pain without Both healers being sages, Commandos are useless in comparison, no hot's, no shields, THEY CANT EVEN COMBAT RES, AOE heals of commando/smuggler are laughable in comparison to those of the sage, i hate that i feel theres basically no point in trying to recruit healers of any class apart from Jedi sage, because they dont seem to have nearly as much utility/Use


again im not saying its not possible without a sage, im saying that from what i can see, it seems much harder without, not impossible,

with larger raid sizes of 16 etc it doesnt matter so much, because you have a bit of room for class diversity, in 8 man mode it gets harder to justify bringing along certain class specs to fulfill certain roles, when others just seem to perform massively better, i cant explain how frustrating it is for me sometimes as a tank to be literally unable to hold aggro due to some stupid mechanic

alright, lets say the turrets are there to encourage diversity, so some tanks have to be vanguards or shadows, and not all JK, fair enough - but guess what? if the raid starts with a shadow/vanguard tank, the odds are it will end that way aswell, why go to the trouble of swapping in a sub optimal Tank after the fight they are useless on is over and done with?

Also another gripe of mine is how much this game seems to hate melee dps in raids, yes i know you can succeed with melee dps, because i've done it pretty much every raid so far, but what i really ask myself is - Why bother? in nightmare mode if i was pushing for a world first, i cant imagine why i would bring melee dps to several encounters, gharj for example, or kiragga, or Soa, the rancor ( for a whole host of reasons, having to avoid aoe damage near a boss so losing tons of dps time, having to travel back and forth between targets when damage needs switching, taking proximity damage that ranged dont have to worry about, etc)

im sure im missing some examples, if someone has good counter points please bring them to me because id love to be proven wrong, if you're going to reply with "its fine because we did encounter X with Y class" please dont bother, what i want is for someone have a valid reason for why i wouldnt bring another class/classes given the choice


*** AND THEN ***

we get into the really ridiculous stuff right now, pylon bosses still bugged, incorrect loot being allocated, the grass boss, all the SOA Bugs that are still live

HOW does this stuff get past the test realm? im losing members left right and center right now because of this kind of thing, how does it even make it on to the test realm? i havent played wow for years, i despise it and would never go back, but this would never even get onto wow's test server, let alone make in to Live
Guild Leader | Aggressive Negotiations
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3 World first Kills, Ex SK Gaming/Curse, played wow, swg, aoc, war, ddo, lotro, and the rest

Slackfumasta's Avatar


Slackfumasta
01.19.2012 , 02:27 PM | #2
tl;dr, but there are way too many fights that are melee-unfriendly, and I've yet to run into one that was range-unfriendly.

Last night we tried the bonus boss in the new FP; jugg tank, jugg dps (me), assassin dps, ranged healer. Too much melee makes that fight way too hard to bother with, but if we'd had some ranged, it would have been cake. HK is much easier with ranged. The list goes on.

My point is that there is never a downside to bringing more ranged, but there is often a downside to bring more melee.

Tohrazer's Avatar


Tohrazer
01.19.2012 , 02:28 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Slackfumasta View Post
tl;dr, but there are way too many fights that are melee-unfriendly, and I've yet to run into one that was range-unfriendly.

Last night we tried the bonus boss in the new FP; jugg tank, jugg dps (me), assassin dps, ranged healer. Too much melee makes that fight way too hard to bother with, but if we'd had some ranged, it would have been cake. HK is much easier with ranged. The list goes on.

My point is that there is never a downside to bringing more ranged, but there is often a downside to bring more melee.
thanks, thats more or less my entire gripe in a much more concise fashion, read this if you think my OP is tl:dr
Guild Leader | Aggressive Negotiations
Negotiations With a Lightsaber!
3 World first Kills, Ex SK Gaming/Curse, played wow, swg, aoc, war, ddo, lotro, and the rest

Vehar's Avatar


Vehar
01.19.2012 , 02:30 PM | #4
A lot of MMOs are like this. Melee get hit by everything twice as much. Usually there are ways to avoid this, more defensive cooldowns, more health, etc etc.

Also melee are more likely to pull more dps quicker then ranged, to even out moving and such.
Squadron 11-11-11

"Never Forget"

Tohrazer's Avatar


Tohrazer
01.19.2012 , 02:32 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Vehar View Post
A lot of MMOs are like this. Melee get hit by everything twice as much. Usually there are ways to avoid this, more defensive cooldowns, more health, etc etc.

Also melee are more likely to pull more dps quicker then ranged, to even out moving and such.
its the healing aswell though, sages are SO MUCH better than commandos, commando doesnt even get a combat res, its ridiculous
Guild Leader | Aggressive Negotiations
Negotiations With a Lightsaber!
3 World first Kills, Ex SK Gaming/Curse, played wow, swg, aoc, war, ddo, lotro, and the rest

Vehar's Avatar


Vehar
01.19.2012 , 02:33 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Tohrazer View Post
its the healing aswell though, sages are SO MUCH better than commandos, commando doesnt even get a combat res, its ridiculous
Meh I haven't heard that about healing in fact I hear a lot of good come from commando healing, people like it. As for the combat rez, not every healer needs one =/
Squadron 11-11-11

"Never Forget"

Snook_'s Avatar


Snook_
01.19.2012 , 02:46 PM | #7
What I dont think you get is that the term "ranged" tank shouldnt even be a term. Any vanguard that stands more than 5 meters away from the target isnt tanking. All of your tanking abilities can only be used within melee distance anyway.

Tohrazer's Avatar


Tohrazer
01.19.2012 , 02:47 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Snook_ View Post
What I dont think you get is that the term "ranged" tank shouldnt even be a term. Any vanguard that stands more than 5 meters away from the target isnt tanking. All of your tanking abilities can only be used within melee distance anyway.
you are really missing the point, did you even read my thread? did you DO the encounters i mentioned?
Guild Leader | Aggressive Negotiations
Negotiations With a Lightsaber!
3 World first Kills, Ex SK Gaming/Curse, played wow, swg, aoc, war, ddo, lotro, and the rest

SpaceJ's Avatar


SpaceJ
01.19.2012 , 03:04 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Snook_ View Post
What I dont think you get is that the term "ranged" tank shouldnt even be a term. Any vanguard that stands more than 5 meters away from the target isnt tanking. All of your tanking abilities can only be used within melee distance anyway.
DPS is tanking after a certain point, and yes you can 'ranged tank' quite effectively on an Assassin that's Darkness spec. although I can't speak to how 'ranged' a Powertech is.

And yes, it's way easier to tank on an Assassin tank as well since you have some ranged options. Jugg. only gets a few, and none of them are stellar damage dealers or threat generators.

Holly_MF's Avatar


Holly_MF
01.19.2012 , 03:08 PM | #10
The game definitely favors ranged. There are fights where melee have to spend time running away, while ranged is still sitting there blasting away. And with some of these enrage timers it just doesn't make sense to bring in melee for those fights.

There are also some fights where having two tanks is pointless and others where it's necessary. It just feels like you have an extra player sometimes that doesn't do anything... which sucks for that player.