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SWTOR encounter-design fails basic game-design principles.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
SWTOR encounter-design fails basic game-design principles.

Syluar's Avatar


Syluar
01.23.2012 , 08:24 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Gunzwei View Post
Malgus puts giant warnings on your screen and every boss emotes a mechanic prior to doing it. Not sure what you're point was.
My point was to recall deadly boss mod and as for warnings and emotes in TOR they are not so blatant as I descriped.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sivar
Also, you seem to have forgotten what WoW once had a massive attunement system that required you to go through massive quest lines and boss kills to qualify for the next raid or dungeon.
How much I miss those!!! It was best part of TBC and also the darkest days when pre-WotLK changes kicked in.

Auilt's Avatar


Auilt
01.23.2012 , 08:53 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Syluar View Post
My point was to recall deadly boss mod and as for warnings and emotes in TOR they are not so blatant as I descriped.


How much I miss those!!! It was best part of TBC and also the darkest days when pre-WotLK changes kicked in.
It was also hated by the majority of the playerbase and made raids inaccessible to the majority of players.

Also, trash quality > quantity as a fundamental mechanic of encounter design is a matter of opinion, not fact.

And it would have been impossible for them to make the Darth Malgus mechanic any more transparent. There is literally a buff on the boss that tells you precisely what to do. My group had zero trouble whatsoever figuring it out our first time in there having never researched the fight at all.

KingFink's Avatar


KingFink
01.23.2012 , 10:24 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Dee-Jay View Post
Borderline unintutive is to spam AoE spells to decloak a boss who will otherwise 1-hit you out of thin air. Especially without a combat log or much in the way of visual clues, it's really difficulty for players to figure out what went wrong and why.

Even if you wanted, figuring out stuff yourself can be annoying because the game doesn't give you the necessary feedback to work with.
Aw, did HK beat you up? I agree a combat log would be excellent, but this is borderline crying.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dee-Jay View Post
Certainly unintuitive is to require multiple players to spam a knock-back ability within a limited time frame so that the boss can fall into the abyss the same way a villian did in a 30 year old movie. Yeah, it's cool and a nice homage but it's certainly not intuitive design. And since there are no real clear clues or implications beforehand, google is really the only alternative.

That my friends, is poor game design.
Step 1: Read the tooltips on the Bosses buffs.
Step 2: Know what to do.
Step 3: Profit.

Information is all around you, if you bother to look.

Dee-Jay's Avatar


Dee-Jay
01.25.2012 , 09:26 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by KingFink View Post
Aw, did HK beat you up? I agree a combat log would be excellent, but this is borderline crying.

Information is all around you, if you bother to look.
But it's not.

Yes, we died a few times to HK but not because we were doing it wrong, but rather because the game doesn't consider all AoE equal. Earthquake worked fine, but Force Sweep did not.

If everyone piles up, takes turns doing AoE and HK still instant-gibs someone you really want to know what's going wrong. But the game provides you with no tools or anything of the like to figure it out.

We killed him after 3 tries of doing EXACTLY the same thing. Why it worked the 3rd time and not the 1st or 2nd was beyond any of our comprehension.

I don't mind failing, but I need to know what went wrong!

Gphalen's Avatar


Gphalen
01.25.2012 , 09:43 AM | #15
I like where in one point (S)he complains about the amount of trash then in the very next he complains there so easy no heal or tank required..

which is it bucky to hard or to soft? makes a difference in many arenas......



I get the fact that most the "Heroics" are cookie cutter and as anyone knows that doesnt boad well for replay value as i have stated over and over and over again!


level one to 50 after that nothing but class quests will change..unless you switch factions..


This game seems rushed to market. no thought was actually put into the lore.

The "Social" points and aspect of this game...why? this is not facebook kiddies.

there is alot that needs tweaking alot that needs to be rethought. pvp is a good point of OVERHAUL required..

However i hate wow. i have multiple 85s was there from beta every one of them reached Gladiator in pvp. i can barely bring myself to enter pvp here its so bad..

The heroics are meh i love to quest and until i hit Belsavis there has been a huge Lack of Quests...Hoth being the worst planet in game up to this point for Questing. i think i left with 13 comendationd and 5-8 were from dead bodies meaning 5-8 quests in total on this planet..forget bonus there not actual quests.


I am with the 90% of the players the game as it is at the moment will not last long enough to worry about xpacs..


In the end its not hard to impliment the changes do it over time just assure us its being done.


But in the end Money Talks Bull---- Walks and guess what i have given a 4 month period then i walk away from this bs
"For the sith to survive we must hide in the shadows,
Become a Phantom Menace if you will - Darth Bane!

Gphalen's Avatar


Gphalen
01.25.2012 , 09:46 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Auilt View Post
It was also hated by the majority of the playerbase and made raids inaccessible to the majority of players.

Also, trash quality > quantity as a fundamental mechanic of encounter design is a matter of opinion, not fact.

And it would have been impossible for them to make the Darth Malgus mechanic any more transparent. There is literally a buff on the boss that tells you precisely what to do. My group had zero trouble whatsoever figuring it out our first time in there having never researched the fight at all.

Yes the attonement lines were hated by players in wrath! which is when they dropped it 3.4 to be exact.

why ? QQ its to hard, i dont want to travel around..same as the charger i worked my butt off to EARN in game now its handed to you.

thats is why wow is failing..go take a look wed there offline for another 3-4 hrs if they even finish on time which they havent 90% of the time.. tuesday is down day not wed thurs fri sat and every xpac or patch requires 3-4 days of maintenance or rolling restarts.

i am a beta player of wow 7 yrs paid game time multy 85s wow has gone down hill since 3.0
"For the sith to survive we must hide in the shadows,
Become a Phantom Menace if you will - Darth Bane!

JLapp's Avatar


JLapp
01.25.2012 , 09:55 AM | #17
1. Accessibility: Mainly annoying for hard modes when someone has to do some dialog, then drop the quest so they can pick up the hard mode one. I'd also like to have a transport from the fleet to ilum so I don't have to do the whole ship loading to change planets.

2. I think they are decently varied. Not all flashpoints are on ships...

3. I don't think there are an excessive number of trash mobs. Do you just want to hop in an instance and fight 4 bosses in 20 minutes and leave?

4. Hard mode trash hits pretty hard. They are still pretty easy to get through since they don't really have a lot of HP and DPS can kill the weaker enemies quickly. But it's trash for a reason.

There are also mini-bosses in most instances that you have to kill to progress to the bosses that actually drop loot.

5. I think the fights are well designed. I'm trying to think of a boss (actual boss, not mini-boss) that is straight tank and spank (no adds or any other type of fight mechanic that needs to be done) and having trouble coming up with one (Last boss in battle for Ilum does some stuff but pretty much a normal fight).

The only thing that wasn't really intuitive would be the HK fight but when I looked it up it made a lot of sense. The malgus thing was pretty obviously...The not being able to damage him, the whole ROTJ feel, the room with a ton of edges to fall off, the debuff that makes him able to be knocked back.

ML_DoubleTap's Avatar


ML_DoubleTap
01.25.2012 , 12:26 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Dee-Jay View Post
Even if you wanted, figuring out stuff yourself can be annoying because the game doesn't give you the necessary feedback to work with.
You have to be a younger gamer. This sentence comes off extremely lazy. Games have way too much hand holding these days. Figuring things out shouldn't be annoying, it's part of the game. Pull the silver spoon out of your mouth and work to figure stuff out...game is really not that much of a brain twister.

Raehj's Avatar


Raehj
01.25.2012 , 12:37 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Dee-Jay View Post
But it's not.

Yes, we died a few times to HK but not because we were doing it wrong, but rather because the game doesn't consider all AoE equal. Earthquake worked fine, but Force Sweep did not.

If everyone piles up, takes turns doing AoE and HK still instant-gibs someone you really want to know what's going wrong. But the game provides you with no tools or anything of the like to figure it out.

We killed him after 3 tries of doing EXACTLY the same thing. Why it worked the 3rd time and not the 1st or 2nd was beyond any of our comprehension.

I don't mind failing, but I need to know what went wrong!
I dunno, he doesn't insta-gib anyone for me. But then again, I know as a healer I need to shield everyone when he cloaks up... Also - we don't have 11k hp because we actually spent time getting mods etc. to prepare for HMs.

Like I said before, if your gripe is with the bugginess - I get you. There are things that are frustrating bug wise in game, however so soon after release I can deal with it.

What I can't deal with is all you WoW-only kids who need your hands held through everything - and blaming "design" (Which no offense, you clearly are using this as a "keyword" that has very little to do with the reality of what your saying) for your woes.

I hate to be a trolol..

but..


L2P? ):

Daluu's Avatar


Daluu
01.25.2012 , 12:44 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by ML_DoubleTap View Post
You have to be a younger gamer. This sentence comes off extremely lazy. Games have way too much hand holding these days. Figuring things out shouldn't be annoying, it's part of the game. Pull the silver spoon out of your mouth and work to figure stuff out...game is really not that much of a brain twister.
Amen.