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Dungeon Finder System Eventually


MareLooke's Avatar


MareLooke
12.14.2011 , 07:33 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by simieon View Post
i am aware that im going to get flamed here, for what i am about to say. but unless they find some way of automagically decrease time in que from hours to minutes, i believe cross realm is a nescesity (<-- typo i know it, but cant remember the proper way to spell it). having a cross flashpoint finder in no way prevents you from grouping with your guildmates, or create a pug in general.
You are wrong. Setting up a dungeon PUG in WoW will only get you laughed at, the only way to do it is if you already know all the people you want to group with, and as such it is no longer a PUG and obviously also defeats the purpose of being useful in getting to know new people.

Quote: Originally Posted by simieon View Post
personally, i dont mind it, as it gives faster ques for those of us who doesnt enjoy playing as a tank or healer. and i know a rather large portion of players (id assume its the silent majority) agrees with me. i know the most hardcore players prefer it another way, but they have to accept that even though they are the most devoted custumers, they are also a minority. and so the hardcore endgame content should be tailored to their needs, but the content that every player is ment to see relatively early after it going live should not be.
I don't play as a tank or a healer, and never have (on any of my mains anyway, well, except in EQ2, but there healers aren't in short supply so the point is moot) and I had no problems getting groups during TBC. The trick is to build something of a reputation on the server. Agreed, if you don't play often this will take longer than for others that do play a lot but sooner or later people will recognize your name and sooner or later (probably sooner if you are social and nice in the groups you get into) people will ask you to join when they start a group. Even if they outlevel you they will often notice when you get to their level (or the max level, whichever comes first) and the invites will be coming again.

What I'm saying also isn't something I'm making up, but actual experience. I actually got asked to a guild's first kill of a raid mob (The Lurker Below in Serpentshrine Cavern during TBC in case it matters) because they were short a dps and one of their members remembered me from when we grouped a few times while leveling. She had outleveled me and we hadn't had all that much contact since, but people DO remember and even better they don't generally care how 1337 your gear is as long as you don't constantly do stupid things and are a nice person. (on an unrelated note, this was my first ever proper max level raid and got me hooked to raiding, so I wasn't some 1337 geared guy at that point, I DID however know how to play my class)

LFG systems stimulate result and gear driven grouping where all that matters is getting to the end as fast as possible and where you're not welcome unless you have the best gear, irregardless of whether that gear is actually needed for the zone you are going to do. Not having such a system generally results in people being a lot more relaxed and a lot more talking going on before, during and after the run (and it's not uncommon for such a group to wreck through dungeon after dungeon, sometimes taking 30min for lunch/dinner and then just continuing).

Quote: Originally Posted by simieon View Post
in the end the succes of this game rests on the shoulders of casual players, they bring in the largest portion of money. so catering to them to a certain degree would be a wise move from bioware, and free up more funds to develop more raids, and new battlegrounds for pvp'ers.
LFG is especially bad for casual players as I explained in detail in a previous post in this thread. Fact is that if you're not into hardcore raiding you don't NEED to be able to get the best gear fast, all that would mean is that you run out of content in a jiffy (something Blizzard is finding out the hard way). I prefer doing one enjoyable flashpoint on an evening and *maybe* getting new gear over doing 50 unenjoyable ones in an evening and getting a bunch of new stuff (and running out of loot to get after a week...)

Another thing worth noting since you make the distinction between casual/hardcore players is that hardcore players WILL stop doing flashpoints if they're not fun for them as they WILL run out of gear to get from them FAST. If flashpoints stay fun for them (which in most cases means social) they will keep running them on a semi regular basis.

As an example I use my former WoW guild, during TBC most members regularly PUGged just for kicks (we were raiding Black Temple and up so nobody needed any of the gear) but a while after LFG appeared in Wrath people stopped doing so and only did just enough instances to get the gear they needed. Eventually this lead to most of the guild only logging on to raid and more and more people quitting the game until the guild died halfway through WotLK.

Another thing is that if you start to lose your hardcore players this generally means there's something seriously wrong and the "casuals" will eventually follow (also as Blizzard is finding out)

Lykurgus's Avatar


Lykurgus
12.14.2011 , 07:45 AM | #62
I always play tank or healer these days. I just feel I can offer more to a group that way.

I stopped doing PUGS on wow using random LFG, It killed it for me tbh. While I think in essence itís a good idea, the total lack of any kind of responsibility or accountability turns your average intertron Joe into an unmitigated ***.

Trying to tank a dungeon full of morons who donít care about the group, their reputation or their tanks nerves is just horrific. I hated it to the point that even tho it took less than 5 seconds for a instance to pop as a lvl85 tank I refused to tank PUGs. Guild runs or I just didnít bother.
Please Bioware, if you go down this route, tread lightly.

simieon's Avatar


simieon
12.14.2011 , 07:57 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by MareLooke View Post
You are wrong.
sorry for shortening your post, basically i think you have a point. but through using wow as a reference you sort of broke it again.
see from the moment activision got involved with blizzard, wow content releases grinded to a halt. giving players nothing to do, other than replaying the same content.

but as your argument goes, you prove very validly that no dungeon finder would be best for you, however you fail to see the downsides to it. the lack of a tool to help you get into a group will exclude a lot of people from participating, and will prove a massive wall for new players to climb before having acces to the content.
people with weak english skills will generally be percieved as either kids or stupid. not to mention that even those rationally thinking will put into concideration that communication will be troublesome, and hence give them a hard time finding a group.
new players with absolutely zero experience will have to either lie, or spend immense amounts of time looking for a decent group.

to sum it up, you might be partially right and non cross realm could be the way to go to keep the core happy, but the dungeon finder tool does make the game a lot more enjoyable for a lot of people.
if they need inspiration, they could look at how trion has implemented it, and when. since it worked really well in rift.

edit: forgot to mention that once you geared out to flex on your main, your alts will automatically become a gear grind, since there is a limit to the number of times the same cutscenes can be enjoyable.

Aarawn's Avatar


Aarawn
12.14.2011 , 08:07 AM | #64
i really hope they dont implement anything cross server. i will use pvp as my example. if you are pvping with people from your server, it actually becomes a rivalry. It becomes much more fun. and your hardcore pvpers will set up events and world pvp through the forums, instead of getting a group together and queing to fight people from 5 other servers that chances are you might recognize a few imparticular people after like 50 battles. Cross server just steals from the gaming experience in my opinon
-The Enclave-
A Jedi gains power through understanding and a Sith gains understanding through power.

G-Seven's Avatar


G-Seven
12.14.2011 , 08:16 AM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by Omniana View Post
I'm okay with a LFD tool.


I'm not okay with cross-server queueing.
My sentiments exactly.
Warning: Game Experience May Change During Online Play

Aarawn's Avatar


Aarawn
12.14.2011 , 08:17 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by simieon View Post
edit: forgot to mention that once you geared out to flex on your main, your alts will automatically become a gear grind, since there is a limit to the number of times the same cutscenes can be enjoyable.
every class in this game has a different story line, its not like playing through WoW or an MMO where every class you play goes through practically the same thing. yes eventually it will be a gear grind at level cap. thats the expected part though.

and about the LFD or what would be the LFF or LFFP here, it would be okay. (sory i have to use WoW as my example) but when they (WoW) put it in, it seems like the servers lost something. you no longer had to know the people on your server unless it came to pugging a raid and now you dont even need that. other games im sure had a better system of doing it.
-The Enclave-
A Jedi gains power through understanding and a Sith gains understanding through power.

MareLooke's Avatar


MareLooke
12.14.2011 , 08:44 AM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by simieon View Post
sorry for shortening your post, basically i think you have a point. but through using wow as a reference you sort of broke it again.
see from the moment activision got involved with blizzard, wow content releases grinded to a halt. giving players nothing to do, other than replaying the same content.
I'm not sure if the release of new content grinded to a halt as much as they made it easier to get through the content (in various ways), so people ran out of stuff to do faster.

Quote: Originally Posted by simieon View Post
but as your argument goes, you prove very validly that no dungeon finder would be best for you, however you fail to see the downsides to it. the lack of a tool to help you get into a group will exclude a lot of people from participating, and will prove a massive wall for new players to climb before having acces to the content.
people with weak english skills will generally be percieved as either kids or stupid. not to mention that even those rationally thinking will put into concideration that communication will be troublesome, and hence give them a hard time finding a group.
new players with absolutely zero experience will have to either lie, or spend immense amounts of time looking for a decent group.
I should probably mention that I'm a rather shy person (something I managed to work on quite some), but as long as I'm not entirely confident in my ability to play my class, the boss tactics or about the gear I have I will be very reluctant to group (though that has improved some as well). LFG hasn't exactly done anything to help with that, if anything the chance of being chewed out is higher as chances you'll ever meet those people again is rather small so a lot of them are much ruder than they would be if they knew it could backfire eventually. But that's just how I see it, I'm quite willing to believe others see this as an easy way to remain anonymous so mistakes made while new don't keep haunting them.

Maybe I'm just a nice guy, but I've never left someone out of a group if they say they are new, in fact I (and I'm certainly not alone in this) enjoy helping and guiding new players. I do however take offense to people remaining silent or blatantly lying about being new. (I just don't take kindly to liars in general)

I'm also always honest if it's the first time I go somewhere, usually that doesn't pose a problem and barring a few exceptional cases people just explain things for you, often more verbose than I need (the boss does this, this and this is good enough for me), but I appreciate that and I always return the favor when running into new players.

I am unlikely to start a group though and will usually "lurk" until I see someone needing a player for a spot I can fill. I can imagine some people don't want to have to start groups but also don't want to wait until a group shows up.

You make a very valid point about people not being too well versed in English though.

Quote: Originally Posted by simieon View Post
to sum it up, you might be partially right and non cross realm could be the way to go to keep the core happy, but the dungeon finder tool does make the game a lot more enjoyable for a lot of people.
if they need inspiration, they could look at how trion has implemented it, and when. since it worked really well in rift.
I quit Rift before they implemented the dungeon finder but iirc one of the problems with Rift was the sheer distance to get to some dungeons, also the game emptied rather badly shortly after the start, that didn't help finding a group any. So maybe their dungeon finder doesn't result in the issues I have with WoW's cross-realm LFG system, though if it is cross realm I doubt it'll be a big improvement, I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.

Note that there IS a dungeon finder in ToR, but not an automatic grouping tool (which is what I refer to when using "LFG" in this thread).

Quote: Originally Posted by simieon View Post
edit: forgot to mention that once you geared out to flex on your main, your alts will automatically become a gear grind, since there is a limit to the number of times the same cutscenes can be enjoyable.
Well true, but my (and most of my guildies') reason for keeping on doing dungeons was the social aspect (that and enjoying the mechanics of another class of course)

I wouldn't mind automatic grouping too much, as long as it stays within the server, most of the issues I have with WoW's system arise because it's cross-realm.

Ohnoto's Avatar


Ohnoto
12.14.2011 , 09:12 AM | #68
I thank everyone that has voiced their opinion about this topic, one way or another in this thread.

Posting this, I knew that there are many who feel strongly one way or another. I have read through all of the replies here, through all of the debating between each other. This is ultimately, a healthy process, of debating and making points for both sides.

Something that I did not convey in my original posting was regarding the server community, and the friends made. The current "first" posting was put there through a bug in the forums that messed with the time stamp.

The argument brought up about creating friends, getting to know each other better is probably the strongest argument that can be made to not have a cross realm dungeon finder. Like others, I made friends while leveling by chatting in open channels. Many of those people joined my guild, and some of them I still chat with today. I can not tell you who anyone is that I met through a Looking for Dungeon feature. I can't tell you their character name, I can't tell you who they are.

As I stated in my original posting, I am all for this feature being within the same server and not cross server. However, once you do internal server, it is one step closer to that urge of doing cross server. It is a slippery slope here.

As several here, I began my MMO gaming in WoW before Burning Crusade. I have since played most major other MMOs, including F2P ones, even if just a 10 day trial. Prior to dungeon finder, general chat in zones was active, people would chat about doing group quests and dungeons. Much like the current zones in Star Wars. People are socializing!

After the cross realm dungeon finder was released in WoW, chat became non-existent. The mentality was to queue up while questing, do the dungeon, get your gear and get out. Absolutely no socializing occurs.

Don't believe this? Load up a trail of WoW, go to The Barrens, which once even had t-shirts devoted to what was known as "Barrens Chat", go to Westfall, go to Silverpine. All of these zones have dungeons for people to do. Just sit and watch the chat that occurs, sit and watch how people ask for doing dungeon groups. Sit and wait.

*crickets*

Absolutely no socializing in a Massively Multi-Player Online game.

After reading all these postings, I would propose to Bioware, to make the many happy, give us an option. Give players a choice. Let us decide when we queue up to look for others on our realm, or an option to look cross realm. Don't give us rewards for either, just let us decide where to draw our player pool from.
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simieon's Avatar


simieon
12.14.2011 , 09:39 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Ohnoto View Post
After reading all these postings, I would propose to Bioware, to make the many happy, give us an option. Give players a choice. Let us decide when we queue up to look for others on our realm, or an option to look cross realm. Don't give us rewards for either, just let us decide where to draw our player pool from.
this would in my opinion be the best solution, however it is unlikely as it would require creating either 2 algorithms for matchmaking, or one very complex one that would include players preffering their own realm in the pool if all players = same realm.
balancing this with que times might be a very tricky buisiness

Quote: Originally Posted by MareLooke View Post
something about leaving rift after the launch burst vanished
they decided to close off some of the realms as trial shards, which in turn balanced population on the remaining realms, and from there on the player count steadily increased. at least the eu whitefall shard had a very healthy population on both sides, as well as a decent amount of pug raids, world pvp, pvp events, and general randomness. while also having automated que systems.

to me personally, a lfg tool is essential to my lvl'ing, as i epicly hate solo grinding in mmo's (hoping tor will be better). and usually lvl purely (or at least close to) through group content. sitting around spamming chats all day would earn me a reputation as both a spammer, and as someone who cannot put a group together through the power of assumptions.

anyways, this is proving to be a rather cool forum argument, as i dont see anything except for valid points, and i hope the bioware forum mods will see this as well, and refer dev's to this thread for future reference when they are developing the systems.

Lokiliesmith's Avatar


Lokiliesmith
12.14.2011 , 09:55 AM | #70
Cross realm finder tanked the level of play in WoW significantly. There is simply too little consequence to being a complete ******e. Before the LFD you formed groups over a period of time that required you 1) know people and 2) treat people with a modicum of respect. Meeting people is easy. You form groups or join groups other people form. WoW reached its height long before the cross server LFD was introduced and fell off shortly after. Correlation != causation, I guess, but take a hint. Other MMOs go on, quite strong, without this tool. It handicaps the social aspect.