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Jedi vs Adeptus Astartes (space marines)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Jedi vs Adeptus Astartes (space marines)

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
01.15.2012 , 08:30 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Captainfenix View Post
Have to disagree on this one. A Space Marine Chapter is exactly 1000 marines (plus support staff which are more or less normal humans, servitors etc.)

While the Marines are Superhumans, they (on a tactical level) do not have any psychic powers or precognition abilities.

Superhuman speed, yes, but withing physical limits. What also is an issue is that also a standard Jedi (presuming he/she is human - which is not always the case^^) also has access to high tech implants on bio and cyberware level. [Appart from what we see in the game 2 - implant slots each, we remember robotic hands, etc.]

So our really fast Spacemarine still moves on a basis of normal phyisics - if also much faster than a top trained human.

In response a Jedi may rely on the wonderful power of Force speed (available in all different shades of "fast") - so I see no real advantage here.

Raw strengh goes to the Marine, even without the wonderful armor. Alas Jedi fighting styles (sith fighting is something completely else) do usually not rely on strengh.

Superior intellect - well it is said Space Marines are superior in their mental attributes - I just fail to see it in actually every publication they show up. Neither are their tactics really brilliant nor their strategy. It's more a "KKN'D" mentality. If you can charge it - you charge it and you certainly don't try to think about what your enemy could do.

Space marine Armour probably can be handled as being coated with Cortosis or something like that so not much change of doing signifanct damage with a lightsaber to it.
Still does not rule out the possiblity of choping up the precious boltgun and the knife (powered weapons might be different of course). Even a lightsaberthrow may get rid of the bolter.

Bolterammo, Plasma, and anything you shoot at a Jedi are a waste of time - it'll be deflected one way or another (most likely just by a forcefield, an application of force push or even the lightsaber - if unlucky straight back into the face of the Marine that shot the stuff at him) or at least dodged (remember the precoginition - he knows where you'll shoot)


And now for the grand finale (some other point ill just spare you for the moment).

How would I try to defeat a Space Marine as a Jedi?

Try 1: Dont - just use "These are not the droids you are looking for!" - Mind Trick. - Since Space Marines are superhuman - "Human" is the essential word here they still might fall for it.

Try 2: Force lift - since the paragons of Jediness can lift things like imperial class stardestroyers an average Jedi should have no problems in lifting a space marine. - Once you have him up you turn an move him as you like right to the next cliff, or other appropriate sight and let the drop do the rest - if this fails - repeat - repeat -repeat

Try 3: Use Force to crush the petty armor from outside in (not a nice thing to do but very effective and not even a dark side power.

Try 4: Use Force to deavtivate Armor (easy going just use "stun droid") and the Marine will not even be able to move in his selfmade prison. (All those servos...)


As for all and any of these compared fights my general rule is the one prepared for the other wins.

Cheers
Actually, any average chapter is around 1,000 Marines, that is the average, the main chapters on the other hand are far more numerous, the Ultra-marines themselves stood at 34,000 Marines in one of the most recent novels by Kelly.

The average marine does not have Psychic abilities, but the average Jedi does not have a wide arrange of abilities with the Force either, They simply don't give a Jedi a clear cut edge over the 8 foot superhuman Marine.

The average space marine can run so fast it's almost like a blur as described in multiple novels, their stamina is what makes them such an unbeatable force, all the other races in 40,000 have a hard time with Marines even when they have massive numerical advantages simply for their durability and skill at holding the line.

And you assume the average Jedi is proficient in force speed, this is not so, otherwise the Jedi would use this technique to such a degree they would never lose, as seen at Order 66, they had no such advantage over mere Clones and got slaughtered, even Jedi Council
members were just shot down on the spot, if it was the Astartes doing so, it would have been far worse than it already was.

As we saw when Darth Malgus was shot at by Jace Malcom, Lightsabers aren't as nearly effective against Large rounds such as Rocket propelled grenades, considering Bolter ammo is literally a grenade in the shape of a bullet, the thing would simply exploded when hit with a Lightsaber, just like what happened to Malgus, and that was with his skill with a Lightsaber, the average jedi wouldn't be so learned and Plasma? Plasma doesn't act anything like a laser does, it is far less stable infact and i don't see how a lightsaber could deflect such a thing.

And Mental manipulation was attempted and failed many times by many races, only Daemonic Possession and usually the will of the Marine himself has ever worked to effect a Marine and Mind Trick certainly doesn't have the power of the Warp behind it.

And Jedi refrain from using the force in such a way, unless they are a darker jedi like Windu, offensive force techniques are usually Push and Pull orientated, most Jedi manipulate the force internally, not the opposite.

This technique is nowhere near as widespread as the Order, only around 20 Jedi have ever actually Demonstrated this ability before.

What you are forgetting is that the Jedi Order is not nearly as battle-hardened or as savage as the Adeptus Astartes are, they wage never ending war, they have one thing on their mind and that is the next or current battle, Jedi are far more passive and even when faced with the Sith, they have always waited and watched before engaged, one of their primary weaknesses, the Astartes would never give up such an advantage, giving the Astartes time is like giving that bomb in your hand time to go off.

The carnage of a Space Marine assault was described in the latest Dark Eldar codex, lightning fast and devastating, Drop-pods act like bombs being dropped then unveiling Terminators, Dreadnoughts and full squads of Marines, that is not even taking into account Space Marine dropships, the vast array of artillery and tanks, which can wipeout entire blocks of buildings, the sheer carnage in those few moments would send the jedi in disarray, they would immediately be overwhelmed by the gargantuan amount of firepower the Astartes would deliver by the second, this is literally a war machine meant for maximum devastation and top efficiency, the reason being is that they have been waging war for nearly twice as long as the entire jedi order has existed, honestly, the Jedi stand no chance.

And I don't even like 40k anymore, it's become a kid's playground, whether it be TT or actual Video Game, Star Wars is much better, but i know this war isn't a war, it would be a training exercise.

BenjaminminU's Avatar


BenjaminminU
01.15.2012 , 10:05 AM | #22
If the force is used a lot then i'm sure the jedi could repel a space marine invasion, i imagine that their armor is very heavy, imagine the weight of a space marine dreadnaught crashing down on a group of their troops
"Declaration: Assassination protocols active. Greetings, master" - HK-51

Deathforged's Avatar


Deathforged
01.15.2012 , 11:58 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post


The average space marine can run so fast it's almost like a blur as described in multiple novels, their stamina is what makes them such an unbeatable force, all the other races in 40,000 have a hard time with Marines even when they have massive numerical advantages simply for their durability and skill at holding the line.

And you assume the average Jedi is proficient in force speed, this is not so, otherwise the Jedi would use this technique to such a degree they would never lose, as seen at Order 66, they had no such advantage over mere Clones and got slaughtered, even Jedi Council
members were just shot down on the spot, if it was the Astartes doing so, it would have been far worse than it already was.

As we saw when Darth Malgus was shot at by Jace Malcom, Lightsabers aren't as nearly effective against Large rounds such as Rocket propelled grenades, considering Bolter ammo is literally a grenade in the shape of a bullet, the thing would simply exploded when hit with a Lightsaber, just like what happened to Malgus, and that was with his skill with a Lightsaber, the average jedi wouldn't be so learned and Plasma? Plasma doesn't act anything like a laser does, it is far less stable infact and i don't see how a lightsaber could deflect such a thing.

As was said above bolter shells are actually missiles not hard rounds like we fire.

Something to keep in mind is that it would probably be Grey Knights that fought the Jedi since they would be seen as tainted or demonic. All Grey knight marines are powerful psychers and nemesis weapons are more dangerous than light sabers. There are also psycannons which a saber wouldn't be able to stop. A marine can kill a man with a punch or kick and they are extremely fast. Iron halos, terminator armor, and storm shields are also protected by energy fields so are not just sliced through.

If the two universes were to meet then there would be no way the SW universe stood a chance. The imperium fights wars on a scale never seen in SW. The guns on their starships are large enough to fit a city inside. Then there titan legions, imperial guard and the inquisition to take into account. If the imperium was ever able to amass its entire military force against a single enemy it would be genocide.

Bobinator's Avatar


Bobinator
01.15.2012 , 12:01 PM | #24
Space Marines.

I dont believe you can block "slug thrower" with a lightsaber...and a bolter is basically a .75 caliber gryojet.

Not to mention...yea, Grey Knights would of course Mary Sue themselves to victory (THANKS TO HE-WHO-SHALL-NOT-BE-NAME'D WARD!) Has anyone seen or heard about Kaldor Draigo? The Grey Knights' Chapter Master...

The God-Emperor himself, looking at his deeds, stood up... And quit his *********** job because clearly he had become irrelevant.



So yea....Basically Jedi are psykers with glowing baseball bats, nothing the Space Marines havent dealt with.
As of right now, i'm rash free.

Deathforged's Avatar


Deathforged
01.15.2012 , 12:36 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Bobinator View Post
Space Marines.


Not to mention...yea, Grey Knights would of course Mary Sue themselves to victory (THANKS TO HE-WHO-SHALL-NOT-BE-NAME'D WARD!) Has anyone seen or heard about Kaldor Draigo? The Grey Knights' Chapter Master...

The God-Emperor himself, looking at his deeds, stood up... And quit his *********** job because clearly he had become irrelevant.
Yes instead of making the primarchs the emperor should have made armies of Kaldor Draigos. The crusade would have been over in weeks, the chaos gods would be dead, the tyranids would be exterminated before they even showed up, and the emperor could take a few centuries off.

Beating the hell out of mortarion and carving a name on his heart was bad enough but then he goes off into the warp and rambo style destroys entire demon cities and favored demons.

Foxfirega's Avatar


Foxfirega
01.15.2012 , 12:44 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Bobinator View Post
Not to mention...yea, Grey Knights would of course Mary Sue themselves to victory (THANKS TO HE-WHO-SHALL-NOT-BE-NAME'D WARD!) Has anyone seen or heard about Kaldor Draigo? The Grey Knights' Chapter Master...
It's funny because it's true~!

I'd bet on Kaldor against anything in any universe ever except that one guy he's Doomed by Fate to die in combat against for the most part. Plot armor so thick you could build cities on it, that one has.
'Your name is in the mouth of others - be sure it has teeth.' - Maxim 16, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

MorbidAri's Avatar


MorbidAri
01.15.2012 , 01:00 PM | #27
Eldar Farseer > Jedi Master > Eldar Warlock > Jedi Knight > Space Marine.

Farseer is top as they could match the Force with their own psychic powers. Like Jedi they too can see into the future. Like Jedi they wield powers that can destroy lesser mortals with mere thought. Why I give the farseer the advantage is tech.

The farseer has a force shield that could deflect a lightsaber. The farseer wields either a Singing spear or a Witchblade. Both weapons are powerful enough to cut through hulking beats with the most tremendous ease.

Yes Lightsaber are equal in power to Singing spear/Witchblade. The real advantage is the force shield of the Farseer. Having the same offense but a better defence is key.

If both universes were to be at war, the Jedi would over take the Eldar by numbers alone. They could never wipe them out as the Eldar would run to the Webway.

As for the Space Marine reference. Just because Grey Knights are OP in the table top doesn't mean they stand a chance against a Jedi. Remember Dark Eldar are always a step away with a Crucible to show your Grey Knights whats what.

And as a final note, I put the Warlock above the average Jedi for a reason. Eldar live longer than even the most powerful force users by hundreds of years. Warlocks master the arts of war for centuries and have the same force shield as a Farseer and powerful offensive psychic powers and weapons as the average Jedi. Again the advantage is in defence alone.

malevolunze's Avatar


malevolunze
01.15.2012 , 02:55 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Bobinator View Post
Space Marines.


Not to mention...yea, Grey Knights would of course Mary Sue themselves to victory (THANKS TO HE-WHO-SHALL-NOT-BE-NAME'D WARD!) Has anyone seen or heard about Kaldor Draigo? The Grey Knights' Chapter Master...

The God-Emperor himself, looking at his deeds, stood up... And quit his *********** job because clearly he had become irrelevant.



So yea....Basically Jedi are psykers with glowing baseball bats, nothing the Space Marines havent dealt with.
HELL YEAH kaldor draigo FTW let me list his awesomeness:

.When he was a normal grey knight he killed a daemon prince m'kar the reborn a feat usually impossible for a normal marine (although he did have help).

.Became the supreme grand master of the grey knights something which requires the unanimous consent of 8 grand masters all beleiving he is pure of soul and will be a great leader.

.Led the grey knights to defeat an army of daemons led by the same prince and this time killed him with no help.

.Wandered the warp endlessly enduring countless horrors which would have easily broken the strongest space marines.

.Killed countless daemons,heretics,daemon princes and greater daemons

.DESTOYED AN ENTIRE DEMONIC CITY SINGLE HANDEDLY.

For all these reasons and more draigos motto should be: When chuck norris isnt enough...

Bobinator's Avatar


Bobinator
01.15.2012 , 03:06 PM | #29
Emperor's Replacement.

For those who dont know about him.
As of right now, i'm rash free.

Gerandar's Avatar


Gerandar
01.15.2012 , 08:50 PM | #30
"you want to shoot yourself in the head"

why more jedi dont do this is beyond me