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Jedi vs Adeptus Astartes (space marines)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Jedi vs Adeptus Astartes (space marines)

EmperorTeknoman's Avatar


EmperorTeknoman
01.14.2012 , 09:40 PM | #11
One factor I think that has been overlooked (among others) in the Space Marine is their armor. Their armor is supposedly made from the hardest materials nearly impossible to destroy in their universe. That factor could be said that it's at least on par with beskar armor which in the Star Wars universe is almost completely lightsaber resistant. Such defenses combined with the Space Marines super-body modificiations would take a ton of effort from the Jedi's lightsaber to inflict a mortal wound without putting the Jedi in harms way (upclose)

The Bolter itself is another deadly weapon that Jedi aren't really ready for. A super-sonic round that is not only armor piecing but explodes. Coupled with it's high rate of fire, and the skill of the wielder I do not see a Jedi coping well with this.

Let's consider the SW equal to the Space Marine. Mandolorians (pardon me if spelling is bad) who are in many ways the closest a normal being can come to being on par with a Jedi are known for killing and besting Jedi to the point where Jedi take them as a serious threat.

So take a Mando, give him genetic alterations to take him to super-human levels of physical and mental prowress, and give him a couple centuries of combat experience. Oh and a deadlier arsenal to match.

I say that it would go to the Space Marine.
"You see I am not a monster; just ahead of the curve."

mecher's Avatar


mecher
01.14.2012 , 09:42 PM | #12
Again, Eldar.

zumbledum's Avatar


zumbledum
01.14.2012 , 10:10 PM | #13
1v1 ill give it to the jedi but not a comfortable easy or safe win. unless its a grey knight ofc then line up the jedi and send them to the slaughter all day long.

Farstrider's Avatar


Farstrider
01.15.2012 , 02:05 AM | #14
An Adeptus Astartes, in wargear, would liquidate a Jedi, no question about it.

Think about the titanic acts of martial prowess these guys are capable of, the genhancements, the non-blaster based weaponary...

A Spacemarine vs. A Sith... Might be a different matter, as the Sith use the Force to directly injure and impair they're opponent.

However, there all kinds of Astartes, and all kinds of Jedi...

Without a system of comparison I say its a moot point.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.15.2012 , 02:52 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by jarjarloves View Post
I love that line because every time I hear it I think... Yeah blowing up a planet is still a greater power then shooting lighting bolts out of your hand or even force choking someone.
That really depends. Vader's quote is rather true. If you look at the EU there's a lot of feats that make the death star's ability to blow up planets a joke. Such as using crystals to amplify your planets to detonate stars or Sidious force storm. Luke manipulating a black hole and more.

Referring only to the movies it was through guidance of the force that allowed Luke to fire precisely into the death star. If it's the will of the force it will happen. It was the will of the force for the sith to be destroyed. Thus. The sith were destroyed. Going by this train of logic the death star is insignificant.

Crucias's Avatar


Crucias
01.15.2012 , 03:03 AM | #16
I'd like to see the Jedi try and block a Plasma Gun with their sabre.
Crucias: Sith Inquisitor
FYI: I can't remove the Stupidity debuff, so I'll just sacrifice you to the gods of the loot roll dice.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
01.15.2012 , 04:25 AM | #17
One on One? between an Average Jedi and an Average Astartes? The Jedi first has to get to the Space Marine without getting blown up by basic bolter rounds or Krak/Frag Genades, they have no advantage of speed, strength and flexibility, as the Space Marines are super humans.

Then we have the fact the Jedi would die far easier than an Astartes would, he has three times more organs than a normal human and we have seen Space Marines survive things that would kill any normal human and was just shoved into a Dreadnought to serve a couple of hundred more years.

If we move on up to Librarians vs Jedi Masters, its a rather quick battle, Psychic Powers have proven far worse than what the normal Jedi Master can do with the Force, the Jedi has also lost his advantage of a Lightsaber as a Librarian has a Power Sword, so I'm going Astartes again.

If we move even further up, it gets beyond ridiculously easy for the Astartes, even if we take Grand Master Luke, we would then put him against anyone Primarch or even The Emperor himself, in which he stands no chance.

All-out war? Astartes' Navy trumps any Jedi or Republic navy.

The Space Marines on the ground have a massive numbers advantage, around five hundred to One, when we consider that the height of the Jedi Order was 15,000 before the Clone Wars, just one Astartes Chapter(which there are a lot of) has more than that, their weaponry massively outmatches anything the Jedi can muster, Psychic Powers, Las Cannons and Battle-Cannons against the Force and Lightsabers? easily the Astartes.

Honestly, the best chance of survival for the Jedi is to disappear and wage a shadow war and hope to the Will of the Force that the Adeptus Astartes just stop caring and move on to another battlefield.

Captainfenix's Avatar


Captainfenix
01.15.2012 , 05:28 AM | #18
Have to disagree on this one. A Space Marine Chapter is exactly 1000 marines (plus support staff which are more or less normal humans, servitors etc.)

While the Marines are Superhumans, they (on a tactical level) do not have any psychic powers or precognition abilities.

Superhuman speed, yes, but withing physical limits. What also is an issue is that also a standard Jedi (presuming he/she is human - which is not always the case^^) also has access to high tech implants on bio and cyberware level. [Appart from what we see in the game 2 - implant slots each, we remember robotic hands, etc.]

So our really fast Spacemarine still moves on a basis of normal phyisics - if also much faster than a top trained human.

In response a Jedi may rely on the wonderful power of Force speed (available in all different shades of "fast") - so I see no real advantage here.

Raw strengh goes to the Marine, even without the wonderful armor. Alas Jedi fighting styles (sith fighting is something completely else) do usually not rely on strengh.

Superior intellect - well it is said Space Marines are superior in their mental attributes - I just fail to see it in actually every publication they show up. Neither are their tactics really brilliant nor their strategy. It's more a "KKN'D" mentality. If you can charge it - you charge it and you certainly don't try to think about what your enemy could do.

Space marine Armour probably can be handled as being coated with Cortosis or something like that so not much change of doing signifanct damage with a lightsaber to it.
Still does not rule out the possiblity of choping up the precious boltgun and the knife (powered weapons might be different of course). Even a lightsaberthrow may get rid of the bolter.

Bolterammo, Plasma, and anything you shoot at a Jedi are a waste of time - it'll be deflected one way or another (most likely just by a forcefield, an application of force push or even the lightsaber - if unlucky straight back into the face of the Marine that shot the stuff at him) or at least dodged (remember the precoginition - he knows where you'll shoot)


And now for the grand finale (some other point ill just spare you for the moment).

How would I try to defeat a Space Marine as a Jedi?

Try 1: Dont - just use "These are not the droids you are looking for!" - Mind Trick. - Since Space Marines are superhuman - "Human" is the essential word here they still might fall for it.

Try 2: Force lift - since the paragons of Jediness can lift things like imperial class stardestroyers an average Jedi should have no problems in lifting a space marine. - Once you have him up you turn an move him as you like right to the next cliff, or other appropriate sight and let the drop do the rest - if this fails - repeat - repeat -repeat

Try 3: Use Force to crush the petty armor from outside in (not a nice thing to do but very effective and not even a dark side power.

Try 4: Use Force to deavtivate Armor (easy going just use "stun droid") and the Marine will not even be able to move in his selfmade prison. (All those servos...)


As for all and any of these compared fights my general rule is the one prepared for the other wins.

Cheers
It's a trap!

malevolunze's Avatar


malevolunze
01.15.2012 , 06:45 AM | #19
Please do not bring primarchs or the emperor into this discussion as these are beings of god like power and not a very fair comparison.

However if you were to put any jedi against a chapter master in terminator armor im sure they would lose complete b adas ses like marneus calgar and kaldor draigo

Foxfirega's Avatar


Foxfirega
01.15.2012 , 08:12 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Captainfenix View Post
While the Marines are Superhumans, they (on a tactical level) do not have any psychic powers or precognition abilities.
And yet, as indicated, as far as statlines go the only thing that a Farseer (a precognitive psyker that can shoot lightning and bend fate itself) has on them is +1WS/BS, 2 Wounds, 1 Initiative, and a Power Weapon (ignores armor). That sounds a lot like the advantages we would be leveraging a Jedi with, however as indicated I don't think an 'average' Jedi would have as high combat attributes or durability (instead dropping to 4WS/BS instead of 5, and 1 wound instead of 3 - effectively giving them the statline of a Warlock, but with a far broaders weep of powers). In close-combat, the advantage is heavily in the Space Marine's favor (S3 vs. T4, even ignoring armor saves, means the chance of inflicting a significant wound is reduced. In the reverse, the Marine is more likely to inflict a wound, and come up ahead). In ranged combat, the Marine again has more options (2 shots vs. 1 while closing in, higher chance of actually doing damage; Force Pushes or Throws would be subject to armor, and Marines have some of the best in the galaxy).

Quote:
Superhuman speed, yes, but withing physical limits. What also is an issue is that also a standard Jedi (presuming he/she is human - which is not always the case^^) also has access to high tech implants on bio and cyberware level. [Appart from what we see in the game 2 - implant slots each, we remember robotic hands, etc.]

So our really fast Spacemarine still moves on a basis of normal phyisics - if also much faster than a top trained human.

In response a Jedi may rely on the wonderful power of Force speed (available in all different shades of "fast") - so I see no real advantage here.
'Superhuman, but within physical limits'? Seriously? We're talking about someone that at 7' and taller moves like lightning on the battlefield, with powered armor that gives them an additional boost, and on occasion specific biological and cybernetic augmentations to increase this advantage.

I'm not saying Jedi aren't fast - however, the 'average' Jedi isn't that much faster then a normal human, and has never been shown to be outside of reflexes. The key thing to remember here is that at best, the average Jedi is just a '****** extra' and still the most likely to die. Order 66 wiped the grand majority of them out of the galaxy, remember, and even in KotOR/KotOR2/TOR we see them die in volume. The Mandalorians (who come close to Space Marine levels, though dropping off just short) also excelled at killing Jedi and they carved quite a bloody swathe through them in the Mandalorian Wars, even if they did fight a losing battle there.

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Raw strengh goes to the Marine, even without the wonderful armor. Alas Jedi fighting styles (sith fighting is something completely else) do usually not rely on strengh.
And they regularly kill more agile, dexterous opponents on a regular basis without batting an eye, and generally in far better kill-to-death ratios then their opponents. All of the Eldar are faster/more graceful, and short of dedicated and often elite close-combat units (which Tactical and Assault marines aren't for the most part - though they're great at it, they're generalists) they clean house with them. Especially on the charge.

Quote:
Superior intellect - well it is said Space Marines are superior in their mental attributes - I just fail to see it in actually every publication they show up. Neither are their tactics really brilliant nor their strategy. It's more a "KKN'D" mentality. If you can charge it - you charge it and you certainly don't try to think about what your enemy could do.
They think and react faster then normal humans for the most part, and a lot of their strategies leverage the huge advantage they often have on their opponents. When you know that you can break through almost any line, you don't go with some elaborate, grand strategy - you go with the most efficient choice. Blasting straight through the 'core' of the opposition and gutting their leadership while scattering the rest is brutally effective, especially when you can pull it off.

Revan was often lauded as a strategic genius, and outside of it being slammed in our face repeatedly, we never really saw any of that, either. Throughout the Clone Wars, we see a ton of really stupid tactical decisions on the part of the Jedi Generals in charge of Clone Troopers. There's a good reason for this - the people writing this stuff aren't tactically brilliant themselves. Even Tom Clancy has some tactical flaws in his writing (though he's generally great). It's a stupid point to discount them.

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Space marine Armour probably can be handled as being coated with Cortosis or something like that so not much change of doing signifanct damage with a lightsaber to it.
Still does not rule out the possiblity of choping up the precious boltgun and the knife (powered weapons might be different of course). Even a lightsaberthrow may get rid of the bolter.
Going to diagree with you here, too - a Lightsaber is effectively a Power Weapon in that it straight up ignores armor saves. While we can assume that this or that happens, the end of the day, there isn't a lot that the Space Marine is going to be able to do other then avoid it (and if given proper incentive and leveraging their higher intelligence, they may clue in pretty quickly that 'big glowy energy weapon = avoid instead of parry'). However, against anything else the Jedi may attempt to do, their armor is going to straight up ignore it (even Eldritch Storm doesn't break through, and it's raw psychic lightning; Other examples include 'standard' power Imperial Guard Psyker blasts [lightning], Necron Gauss [magnetic field ripping the target apart almost on the molecular scale] and Tesla [raw magnetic lightning] weaponary, and some direct Psychic powers [Living Lightning, Smite] from other Space Marine chapters all fail to break through entirely, to say nothing of more direct physical attacks).

Quote:
Bolterammo, Plasma, and anything you shoot at a Jedi are a waste of time - it'll be deflected one way or another (most likely just by a forcefield, an application of force push or even the lightsaber - if unlucky straight back into the face of the Marine that shot the stuff at him) or at least dodged (remember the precoginition - he knows where you'll shoot)
Can Jedi deflect slugthrower rounds? It's been my understanding that generally, they move too fast and are too small of a target to effect properly. The Space Marine bolter is a hyper-advanced gyrojet rifle (or pistol) that overcomes the primary problem with the design in the first place - ramp up time. This is basically throwing a grenade at you at supersonic speeds - I call bunk on them being able to deflect it outside of extreme ranges, or the 'average' Jedi taking enough levels in ****** to become 'Exceptional', and then we're not comparing them on a fair basis in the first place.

Direct-quoting Wookiepedia as a case example: "For example, during the days of the Galactic Republic, mercenaries fearing an intervention by Jedi Knights used rapid-fire slugthrowers that were impossible to completely deflect, unlike blaster bolts."

Volume of fire on a machine-gun firing explosive rounds (or any number of other things, up to and including armor-piercing adamantium slugs or plasma detonators) would overwhelm most Jedi's ability to deflect. Dodge? That I can live with, but that gives a tactical edge to the Space Marine all the same by forcing angles of attack by denying others. The ranged edge still goes to the Marine here, as the average Jedi can't do anything at range that would seriously hamper or impair the Marine, and the reverse is most emphatically not true.


Quote:
Try 1: Dont - just use "These are not the droids you are looking for!" - Mind Trick. - Since Space Marines are superhuman - "Human" is the essential word here they still might fall for it.
Space Marines are the most hardened, disciplined, mentally forceful beings in the galaxy. Even dedicated psychic assaults on them don't always work - most mind tricks wouldn't work on them just as it wouldn't work on anyone else in the Star Wars universe that is trained to resist mental assault or otherwise has a forceful will (and Marines are given specific training to resist mental assault, as they have far more to fear about it on a daily basis then anyone in the Star Wars universe does). Anyone going for the 'mind trick' would be shot on the spot as either an enemy trick (and a dumb one at that), or an unsanctioned enemy psyker (which is kill-on-sight).

Quote:
Try 2: Force lift - since the paragons of Jediness can lift things like imperial class stardestroyers an average Jedi should have no problems in lifting a space marine. - Once you have him up you turn an move him as you like right to the next cliff, or other appropriate sight and let the drop do the rest - if this fails - repeat - repeat -repeat
Bringing up an 'exceptional' Jedi to make your claim is a biased, unobjective measure. However, I'm not going to disagree that a Jedi could Force Lift/Throw a Space Marine - I will argue that this wouldn't exactly phase the Space Marine all that much, and unless they can do the throw quickly (Space Marine in full combat gear is ~600+lbs), all the Marine would do is compensate for the disturbance and aim accordingly while the Jedi's defenses are down and they're stationary (even exceptional Jedi for the most part have a moment of lowered defenses and/or stationary positioning in order to do a Force Lift/Throw - citing specifically the number of examples during the Prequels and OT of this, though I'll grant that once we breach the 'exceptional' barrier [Ventress, Vader], this becomes less of an issue. But again, we're ignoring what exceptional individuals can do here).

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Try 3: Use Force to crush the petty armor from outside in (not a nice thing to do but very effective and not even a dark side power.
How often did this work on Mandalorians? I imagine if this was an 'acceptable' tactic to the Jedi to knowingly crush a living, sentient opponent without any remose or compunction, they would do it far more often. It's not even a moral hurdle for a Space Marine (the most brutal tactics are often the most effective), but if this were possible to do quickly against highly armored targets and their philosophy LET them do it, they would more often. We don't see examples of this often enough from 'average' Jedi to suggest if this is even possible. Nevermind that Space Marine armor makes anything short of anti-vehicle rounds a crapshoot on actually breaching the armor, or the fact that they could take the crushing and still function during it (numerous case examples of this - from monstrous creatures to having huge rocks chucked onto them) to get a counter-attack off (whether it hits or is effective is another story) makes this less likely to work.

Quote:
Try 4: Use Force to deavtivate Armor (easy going just use "stun droid") and the Marine will not even be able to move in his selfmade prison. (All those servos...)
Mandalorian and Clone Trooper armor, and indeed a significant amount of front-line heavy infantry combat armor in the Star Wars universe is powered. I've never even seen an example of even an 'exceptional' grade Jedi pulling this off. Also, it's worth noting that the Space Marine in the armor can still move at human-speed even if their armor is unpowered. The servos are pure, gratuitous strength and movement enhancements to let them hit harder and move like they weren't even wearing it.

Not saying it couldn't happen, but that it doesn't happen enough in-universe for it to seem likely and that it wouldn't be as big of an advantage as it's being stated it would be.

As I stated previously, it's not clear-cut that the average Space Marine would win every time, but would win with a far higher average against the average Jedi. :U
'Your name is in the mouth of others - be sure it has teeth.' - Maxim 16, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries