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Yoda failed ...


Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.13.2012 , 05:07 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by ozirizo View Post
I can't find any of this on your precious quotes.

You assume, the same way I do.
just--

didn't--

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi--

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.


I bolded where it states that.

Then there's Leland Chee's quote..

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa

ozirizo's Avatar


ozirizo
01.13.2012 , 05:08 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.


I bolded where it states that.
Fixed it for you.
Clio Martell / Jedi Sage / Eros Martell / Commando / Ahto City

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.13.2012 , 05:12 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by ozirizo View Post
Fixed it for you.
Yet he obviously believed there'd be a good chance he'd die if he came to that line of thought. There's also Leland Chee's quote. There's also the Dark Empire comics. Which you continuously ignore as well.

ozirizo's Avatar


ozirizo
01.13.2012 , 05:20 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
Yet he obviously believed there'd be a good chance he'd die if he came to that line of thought. There's also Leland Chee's quote. There's also the Dark Empire comics. Which you continuously ignore as well.
I'm not ignoring them. I just don't feel the need to individually quote every one of them.

Fact is, everything goes around a possibility.

Was there a good chance that Yoda would have lost? Maybe.

If this could happen or not, is beyond you, me and any other book writer, simply because Yoda left before we could figure it out.

This is not the only example of a Sith vs Jedi fight where the apparently strongest one loses vs the apparently weakest one.

Things are not that simple.
Clio Martell / Jedi Sage / Eros Martell / Commando / Ahto City

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.13.2012 , 05:27 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by ozirizo View Post
I'm not ignoring them. I just don't feel the need to individually quote every one of them.

Fact is, everything goes around a possibility.

Was there a good chance that Yoda would have lost? Maybe.

If this could happen or not, is beyond you, me and any other book writer, simply because Yoda left before we could figure it out.
You can't use the lack of evidence to formulate evidence. Sidious was capable of destroying planets in Dark Empire. We have never seen Yoda countering or being able to withstand such attacks. He was knocked back from Sidious force lightning alone. You can make the argument in that specific duel he might have been able to win but it doesn't matter.

Even if he had killed sidious. He wouldn't have died permanently. When I claim Sidious is more powerful than Yoda I'm not only talking about what we see in the movies. I'm talking about everything he can do and from what we know about him in the EU if Yoda cut him down he'd merely switch to a younger healthier body.

Also I understand where you're coming from but that's also how the rules of Canon are layed out. Leland Chee claimed that Sidious proved too powerful to defeat. In his quote he stated that Yoda was defeated and directly confronting Sidious is doomed to failure. Considering the movies do not contradict with this statement, given the rules of Canon, we have to take his word for it.

Now if Lucas comes back and adds scenes that contradict those statements? Then yes. That'd overwrite anything Chee states. However, it wouldn't change my opinion on the matter. Sidious reborn is completely over the top and I don't see any possible way of Yoda competing with that.

Also while sometimes the weaker can beat the stronger there's a point where someone is too strong. Imean, Luke currently is at a level where most Jedi masters in previous era won't be able to do anything to him. I mean, he's been known to just point and hold down powerful force users with no effort with them being unable to move.

When I use the word power. I mean power. Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. Being able to survive after death. Destroy entire starfleets (Luke says it'd be able to destroy a planet) with a wormhole. Teleport Luke from one planet straight to his side mind wipe billions of people at once. Control the minds of billions. Able to siphon the life out of billion to empower himself.. these are some of the over the top things Sidious reborn could do and that's not even half of it.

Does it sound retardedly ridiculous? Yes. It does because it is. If Yoda had that kind of power it'd detract from the movies I'd think and look more like something on DBZ. Even worse.. Dark Empire was Lucas' idea.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
01.13.2012 , 05:48 AM | #26
Everything Rhyltran has stated is fact, backed up by C-canon workings and Leland Chee himself, you are arguing against canonical fact and have devolved your argument into 'There is no evidence...', which right there shows you have no argument against what is already fact, Darth Sidious was much more powerful than Grand Master Yoda, Yoda's and indeed the galaxy's only hope was to stop fighting the Sith in a war he had already won, the Jedi were simply stuck in the days of the New Sith Wars and the entire order payed for it with all but extinction, they got out-smarted and only Luke Skywalker and the Prophecy could ever defeat Sidious, as was the way it was meant to be.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
01.13.2012 , 05:52 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
When I use the word power. I mean power. Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. Being able to survive after death. Destroy entire starfleets (Luke says it'd be able to destroy a planet) with a wormhole. Teleport Luke from one planet straight to his side mind wipe billions of people at once. Control the minds of billions. Able to siphon the life out of billion to empower himself.. these are some of the over the top things Sidious reborn could do and that's not even half of it.

Does it sound retardedly ridiculous? Yes. It does because it is. If Yoda had that kind of power it'd detract from the movies I'd think and look more like something on DBZ. Even worse.. Dark Empire was Lucas' idea.
Yup, This is Star Wars, It is inherently ridiculous, it always has been and it always will be, but thats kinda the point of it without going into the philosophical context.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.13.2012 , 05:55 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
Yup, This is Star Wars, It is inherently ridiculous, it always has been and it always will be, but thats kinda the point of it without going into the philosophical context.
Indeed. I still think they got a bit carried away with Sidious' powers but I also understand that they wanted Lucas' creation to be the ultimate "big bad." in the series. Still, I'd rather read about incredibly powerful characters than actually see them on screen. What I mean is.. it wouldn't fit in the rest of the context of the films.

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Rayla_Felana
01.13.2012 , 06:03 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
Indeed. I still think they got a bit carried away with Sidious' powers but I also understand that they wanted Lucas' creation to be the ultimate "big bad." in the series. Still, I'd rather read about incredibly powerful characters than actually see them on screen. What I mean is.. it wouldn't fit in the rest of the context of the films.
The thing was with Sidious and the Dark Empire series is it seemed like....much of the older workings, fan-fiction, and to be honest not very well written fan-fiction, like two kids debating who would win, Batman vs Superman or Picard vs Kirk.

In the case of Star Wars: Luke Skywalker or Emperor Palpatine, so they went and got rights, wrote the most ridiculous over-powered **** they could think of, until someone decided Luke got so powerful it wasn't possible for Sidious to get even MORE ridiculous than Skywalker was, and hence, here we are, with a completely irrelevant canon because we already have our Supermans and Batmans.

Gestahlt's Avatar


Gestahlt
01.13.2012 , 06:37 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by ozirizo View Post
Canon wise it's:

Movies > EU (wich includes books)

All of your argument is based on EU, wich is debatable if it's really the same thing we actually see at the movies.

I can agree with the Force not letting Yoda win, destiny and stuff.

But Yoda lacking the power to defeat Palpatine? Come on.
Wrong.

Novelizations of the movies are G-canon.