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Yoda failed ...


Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.13.2012 , 04:28 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by ozirizo View Post
I think you're mistaken with the guy you're talking to (seems like you think you have read some of my answers before), might be a good idea to double check first hehe.

Can you provide us with a link with an official statement to back up what you're saying?

The thing is, books can be wonderful and bla bla bla. But movies are open to any interpretation. You say I cannot prove wrong, but neither can you.

All I know is this: at the movie's fight scene

- Yoda mocks Palpatine
- Yoda overpowers Palpatine force vs force

According to what we see at the movie:

- Palpatine has longer arms

Here's the rules of Canon.

G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1]
T-canon,[2] or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6].

C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.

Again, prove it. Where does the movie contradict my quotes? I don't have to prove it. It goes like this.

Can you prove the movie contradicts Sidious being more powerful.

If you can't prove it.

Then it does not.

EU states he's more powerful.

If there's no movie contradiction.

Sidious is more powerful.

Ah, now you resort to Ad Hominem. The last desperate resort to prove a point.

ozirizo's Avatar


ozirizo
01.13.2012 , 04:31 AM | #12
Quote:
Again, prove it. Where does the movie contradict my quotes? I don't have to prove it. It goes like this.

Can you prove the movie contradicts Sidious being more powerful.

If you can't prove it.

Then it does not.

EU states he's more powerful.

If there's no movie contradiction.

Sidious is more powerful.
You're still following the same line of... whatever is going on inside your head (I dare not call that logic).

Sorry, that simply does not work. For anything in this world, just saying.
Clio Martell / Jedi Sage / Eros Martell / Commando / Ahto City

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.13.2012 , 04:32 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by ozirizo View Post
You're still following the same line of... whatever is going on inside your head (I dare not call that logic).

Sorry, that simply does not work. For anything in this world, just saying.
I also don't see you refuting any of my points. "Your logic does not work." isn't refuting anything.

And it's not "whatever is in my head." It's the rules of Canon.

ozirizo's Avatar


ozirizo
01.13.2012 , 04:35 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
I also don't see you refuting any of my points. "Your logic does not work." isn't refuting anything.
Your whole argument is resumed on "because x book says so".

What do you want me to refute about?
Clio Martell / Jedi Sage / Eros Martell / Commando / Ahto City

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.13.2012 , 04:37 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by ozirizo View Post
Your whole argument is resumed on "because x book says so".

What do you want me to refute about?
No, my argument is that Lucas hired a guy to create rules for his work. According to the rules C Canon is fact so long as it doesn't contradict the movies which are the highest form of Canon. There is NO contradiction in the movies regarding Sidious being more powerful than Yoda. Example, in Dark Empire he returns in a younger more powerful body. Tell me, by the movies, how it proves that cannot and does not occur?

Yes. My argument is that the book says so. Nothing contradicts the material in the book. The book is C - Canon. C Canon is still Canon.

ozirizo's Avatar


ozirizo
01.13.2012 , 04:40 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
No, my argument is that Lucas hired a guy to create rules for his work. According to the rules C Canon is fact so long as it doesn't contradict the movies which are the highest form of Canon. There is NO contradiction in the movies regarding Sidious being more powerful than Yoda. Example, in Dark Empire he returns in a younger more powerful body. Tell me, by the movies, how it proves that cannot and does not occur?
The key to your missunderstanding is in this paragraph:

Quote:
The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?
If you don't get it, have a good day.

You have my permission to mumble as much as you need to.
Clio Martell / Jedi Sage / Eros Martell / Commando / Ahto City

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.13.2012 , 04:41 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by ozirizo View Post
The key to your missunderstanding is in this paragraph:



If you don't get it, have a good day.

You have my permission to mumble as much as you need to.
What contradiction in the movies is there? Sidious does not die during the movies. Lol, you're evading my question and dodging. "I'm going to throw this out here and claim you just don't understand." another tactic people use when they have no argument.

This is the second time we've debated where you haven't backed up any of your points while resorting to Ad hominem and Strawman arguments before running off. You also get extremely heated and seem to take things a little too personally.

ozirizo's Avatar


ozirizo
01.13.2012 , 04:53 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
What contradiction in the movies is there? Sidious does not die during the movies. Lol, you're evading my question and dodging. "I'm going to throw this out here and claim you just don't understand." another tactic people use when they have no argument.
Sigh... Okay. One last time.

I said EXACTLY THIS:

Spoiler


Then you mumbled lots of words and bla bla, I'm just quoting the main points

Spoiler


And then comes the actual book quotes, wich takes us to:

Spoiler


This is not talking about a lightsaber battle or a force clash.

This is way beyond that, and it's the reason why Yoda left.

The battle was lost for the entire Jedi Order, not just Yoda. They were now enemies of the Republic because they did not see through the corruption of the Senate and the Canciller. They lost because he did not know if Obi Wan would win vs Anakin. He lost because if he had died, so would hope.

He lost because the Sith went way ahead of a battle; they corrupted the very foundation of the allies of the Jedi Order, they corrupted the Justice system and ultimately, they corrupted the Jedi Order itself.

Do you really simplify your OWN quotes on something as dumb as "Palpatine is so pr0 with a lightsaber oMg he pwnz Yoda anytime n00b!".

Oh the humanity and the reading comprehension...

Quote:
This is the second time we've debated where you haven't backed up any of your points while resorting to Ad hominem and Strawman arguments before running off. You also get extremely heated and seem to take things a little too personally.
And please, enough of that. Every post you made in this thread if half an argument, half of your intents of confrontation with me.

I don't care, and I will not follow that. Just cease.
Clio Martell / Jedi Sage / Eros Martell / Commando / Ahto City

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.13.2012 , 05:01 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by ozirizo View Post
Sigh... Okay. One last time.

I said EXACTLY THIS:



Then you mumbled lots of words and bla bla, I'm just quoting the main points



And then comes the actual book quotes, wich takes us to:



This is not talking about a lightsaber battle or a force clash.

This is way beyond that, and it's the reason why Yoda left.

The battle was a lost for all the Jedi Order, not just Yoda. They were now enemies of the Republic because they did not see through the corruption of the Senate and the Canciller. They lost because he did not know if Obi Wan would win vs Anakin. He lost because if he had died, so would hope.

He lost because the Sith went way ahead of a battle; they corrupted the very foundation of the allies of the Jedi Order, they corrupted the Justice system and ultimately, they corrupted the Jedi Order itself.

Do you really simplify your OWN quotes on something as dumb as "Palpatine is so pr0 with a lightsaber oMg he pwnz Yoda anytime n00b!".

Oh the humanity and the reading comprehension...
You fail to understand the implications of that. Sidious at that point in time was the only Sith left. Yes the entire Jedi order lost and it's bigger than just their duel but in the end the only one left was Sidious. Take Yoda's quote at the end "If I fall here.." he believes there's a good chance that he'd fall if he kept fighting. He knew he couldn't beat him. You seem unable to realize or even admit this.

Not to mention I didn't quote just the novelization either. I also brought up Dark Empire. In which the Emperor returned in a far more powerful younger body through the essence transfer technique. In a younger body he was capable of releasing force storms capable of destroying entire Star Fleets. If Yoda struggled with the version of Sidious he fought at the end of Revenge of the Sith there's absolutely no way he'd defeat the Emperor in his later incarnation.

Then I quoted Leland Chee. Leland Chee stated that the Emperor "proved too powerful to defeat." It states that the "Sith bested him." what you don't realize is that I posted more than one source for a reason. For some reason you decide to only refute one of the sources instead of all of them but once again even in the novelization quote.. if Sidious could have been defeated there'd be no more Sith. Yoda knew there was only two. He states it in the phantom menance.

As for the end of your post what are you talking about? I have no desire to be confrontational with you for absolutely no reason. You disagreed with me. You have before. We have debated this before. It ended up the same way then as it has now. Except I have not once insulted you. I have, not once, attacked you for your views. Even when you attack me.

ozirizo's Avatar


ozirizo
01.13.2012 , 05:06 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
he believes there's a good chance that he'd fall if he kept fighting. He knew he couldn't beat him. You seem unable to realize or even admit this..
I can't find any of this on your precious quotes.

You assume, the same way I do.
Clio Martell / Jedi Sage / Eros Martell / Commando / Ahto City