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Why is there a copy protection system in the graphics, and is it crippling the game?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Why is there a copy protection system in the graphics, and is it crippling the game?

miliways's Avatar


miliways
01.11.2012 , 11:41 AM | #411
Quote: Originally Posted by Tiron_Raptor View Post
He said that the original 'high' setting was too much for most systems, even high-end ones to handle, because of the wide variability in what gets displayed at any given time. The high-res textures are still there and are used in cutscenes, because cutscenes are tightly controlled and thus don't have the variability that pushes the super high res textures to the point they're a problem.

And from the way it's described, it sounds like the problem has more to do with getting the assets off the hard drive and into the memory than with what happens once they're in the memory, which explains my apparent 'paging' on the republic fleet station...as I think I had high res textures forced via a trick with the launcher at the time.

Only answer I can think of for that would be to lean on the memory more: my experiences with explosive memory leak induced crashes caused the client's memory usage to spike to around 3.7-3.8 GB before it crashed, suggesting it's not using much, if any, more than 256MB of VRAM presently. Loading more textures into the vram from the outset, if the VRAM is available, would increase initial load times but vastly reduce the performance hit. Instead of having to look up and load everything on the screen, it only needs the ones it hasn't loaded in yet.

The problem with that would be that the client is 32 bit: any VRAM used reduces the amount of normal system RAM it can address on a 64 bit system (on a 32 bit system it's reduced from the outset, so it may as well use it if it's got it). I've seen shiny new graphics cards with 1GB, 2GB, 3GB, and 4GB of VRAM on them. The client process generally pushes somewhere between 1GB and 2GB of Memory usage. In theory using up to 1GB of VRAM shouldn't be a problem. 2GB is pushing it, more is going to have severe performance effects.

So this gets more feasible with a 64 bit client.

WILL you PLEASE stay true to your word? I've 3 times now tried to explain to you ways you can test your own hypothesis to prove it is wrong, I've presented (as others have) lots of alternative explanations, and now Bioware has OFFICIALLY EXPLAINED the performance problems and texture problems.

Go edit the first post! These are not the droids you are looking for!
YOU SAID YOU WOULD.

Hm, as before, it seems you know a little bit about what you're talking about, but just enough to get yourself confused and in trouble...

The problem here actually has nothing to do with memory footprint. This is about response time, calculation time of the CPU and GPU. If you issue calls to the GPU individually, render this person high res, render this person high res, etc. etc. then it goes too slow, there's too many calls. So instead, it renders multiple people in a single pass, so that there are less calls, and the GPU can pipeline better. However, in order for this trick to work, you have to cram multiple people's textures into a single texture atlas, and pass that all at once. This requires the textures be at a lower resolution than the maximum.

VorpalK's Avatar


VorpalK
01.11.2012 , 11:42 AM | #412
Quote: Originally Posted by miliways View Post
WILL you PLEASE stay true to your word? I've 3 times now tried to explain to you ways you can test your own hypothesis to prove it is wrong, I've presented (as others have) lots of alternative explanations, and now Bioware has OFFICIALLY EXPLAINED the performance problems and texture problems.

Go edit the first post! These are not the droids you are looking for!
YOU SAID YOU WOULD.
They have not officially explained the rather suspicious findings.
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Granrick's Avatar


Granrick
01.11.2012 , 11:42 AM | #413
Quote: Originally Posted by nonforma View Post
I say local server vs. the local hard drive due to the speculation earlier in this thread regarding the second process. Decryption would involve remote requests for keys, and although the data transferred would be small the load would be huge for the remote server authorizing the requests. Actually removing the high quality texture option even though it was available in the beta and used for advertisement is a very risky move, and there has to be an important reason. Reducing load on their servers would be one such reason.
Yes, but tacking on "because of decryption" is in no way founded at this point. Yes the local machine would have trouble keeping up with high res textures, but that in no way says "because we're encrypting them and forcing your machine to decrypt them"

Sotaudi's Avatar


Sotaudi
01.11.2012 , 11:43 AM | #414
Quote:
Queues? They're apparently tying up a fair portion of their server resources and bandwidth doing the client's job server side.
Leaving aside the fact that your entire argument is built off of wild speculation as to the purpose of a specific process that may or may not be doing (more likely not than may) what you suggest, the above tells me you have no business trying to evaluate what is going on here.

Queues have to do with the login process. The login servers are usually not the same servers as the game servers. Even if they were, all games limit the number of people logging in at the same time so that it does not impact the game servers' abiltity to process the creation of the character object to get them into the game.

Games have queues, especially when the game is new. Someone mentioned during the launch that some WoW servers, even now, have at least occassional queues. Suggesting that queues are somehow the result of some wild speculation about graphics textures is the height of absurdity.

Take off your tin hat and don't quit your day job.
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Bluebpy's Avatar


Bluebpy
01.11.2012 , 11:45 AM | #415
Quote: Originally Posted by miliways View Post
Agreed. I think the problem comes from The Hero Engine. It is a very, VERY expensive 3rd party engine, and its brand new, so it hasn't been tested much in a production game. The developer tools are AMAZING (seriously, some of the best I've seen, and I've worked in-industry), so it allows them to make all these huge, detailed planets. I really helps their ability to build the game.

But it would seem the rendering engine that comes with those tools isn't quite as robust as we would like. And while good tools are important for good content, all the content in the world is no fun on a bad game-play experience.

Between Bioware and Simutronics, I'm sure they'll work out the kinks and optimize the engine better. Its just a question of how long its going to take.

For instance, The Hero Engine may still be single-threaded. Ugh. Supposedly they're working on multi-threading it so it'll run smoother on multiple cores.

HEY, maybe thats what that second process is all about!
I hate comparing the game to wow because to me this is much better (ex wow player)

however...... Wow is a VERY old game. Their engine runs great, works of multiple cores and has a 64 bit client.

swtor comes out basically end of 2011 and is single threaded, runs low textures, etc etc

I mean how can that be? I understand why they are using atlas but why not include the option. unless it actually crashes the client? least give us a choice?


I don't wanna come off like all i'm doing is ************ but its pretty evident the game runs awful in many situations. But its running LOW RES textures... is the engine that bad?

It's just mind boggling to me

I could understand if i was running their high res textures via an option and they say it won't run well and i'm getting the performance i am now... but on low res textures.... gimme a break

TonyJP's Avatar


TonyJP
01.11.2012 , 11:46 AM | #416
So any official word on this yet?

Tiron_Raptor's Avatar


Tiron_Raptor
01.11.2012 , 11:46 AM | #417
Quote: Originally Posted by miliways View Post
WILL you PLEASE stay true to your word? I've 3 times now tried to explain to you ways you can test your own hypothesis to prove it is wrong, I've presented (as others have) lots of alternative explanations, and now Bioware has OFFICIALLY EXPLAINED the performance problems and texture problems.

Go edit the first post! These are not the droids you are looking for!
YOU SAID YOU WOULD.
I just did. Specifically the section having to do with the texture issues. The response does address those specifically quite well. It doesn't address any of the others, so I've left those alone for the moment.

I'm still trying to find something to confirm what you say about the heroengine and the remoterenderer just being a part of it that was renamed, but frankly I've been too busy typing and editing to do much searching.
One day my body will be able to take my brain out in public without it embarrassing us.

miliways's Avatar


miliways
01.11.2012 , 11:47 AM | #418
Quote: Originally Posted by VorpalK View Post
They have not officially explained the rather suspicious findings.
What findings? The ones that don't make any logical sense, are impossible, and that I've debunked? Go read through the thread. I wish OP would quote me on the first page and stop misleading people.

nonforma's Avatar


nonforma
01.11.2012 , 11:48 AM | #419
Quote: Originally Posted by Granrick View Post
Yes, but tacking on "because of decryption" is in no way founded at this point. Yes the local machine would have trouble keeping up with high res textures, but that in no way says "because we're encrypting them and forcing your machine to decrypt them"
Decryption being an issue with performance assumes your computer is powerful enough to handle the high-res textures. The assets are encrypted already on your hard drive, to call, decrypt and display them it must have the decryption key from a remote server. The high-res option has been removed due to the number of 'calls' on the asset repository, and I'm speculating that this is only in order to reduce the number of decryption authorization requests on the remote servers. Otherwise they would just have 'Ultra' or 'Extreme' as an option.

miliways's Avatar


miliways
01.11.2012 , 11:49 AM | #420
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyJP View Post
So any official word on this yet?
Yes, I quoted it on the last page.