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Why is there a copy protection system in the graphics, and is it crippling the game?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Why is there a copy protection system in the graphics, and is it crippling the game?

Cioffaz's Avatar


Cioffaz
01.11.2012 , 09:39 AM | #221
Quote: Originally Posted by Granrick View Post
Onlive is basically streaming you a video of the screen. If SWTOR was doing this we'd all know. You can tell by looking at it.
Maybe Gaikai is a better example?

So, we're going to split the money 50/50, right?

Refer me pls!

Tiron_Raptor's Avatar


Tiron_Raptor
01.11.2012 , 09:41 AM | #222
Quote: Originally Posted by sdream View Post
The entire thread is pure speculation unless somebody does tracing and debugging to prove or to disprove that the problem exists.
Yup. I'm sitting here quietly hoping someone will, and wishing I had a clue how to go about it. Unfortunately I'm Computer Systems Support (Tech), not CIS (Programmer), so I don't know that much.
Quote:
However, what this thread displays clearly is the lack of any sort of meaningful communication from development and CSR teams. Mr. Reid, communicating with your paying customers in 140 characters on Twitter just doesn't cut it.
To be fair, it's only been two and a half hours. It's already explosive and heading for 'Threadnaught' levels at a record pace, so I'd wager someone over there is panicking appropriately.
One day my body will be able to take my brain out in public without it embarrassing us.

Zlodo's Avatar


Zlodo
01.11.2012 , 09:41 AM | #223
Quote: Originally Posted by Tiron_Raptor View Post
There's also a remoterendererclient.dll and Remoterendererserver.icb, the last of which based on that other thread appears to be related to the second swtor.exe process.

It's far more likely that SOME of the assets are streamed from the server and rendered via the second process, possibly using software rendering (which would be terrible).
"streaming assets from the server", if it does happen, is not something that requires a second process, or to be rendered separately from assets loaded from the hard disk.

There's absolutely no reason to believe that any software rendering is involved anywhere.

All we possibly know is that there is a separate process (running locally) that might be doing some rendering.
Eleris, Jedi Shadow, Lord Calypho
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

Fujitasix's Avatar


Fujitasix
01.11.2012 , 09:41 AM | #224
Quote: Originally Posted by drbaltazar View Post
ability delay is adjustable in game ,0,250,500 (ms)etc
The ability QUEUE is adjustable, the ability delay you experience in game most definitely is not.

PjPablo's Avatar


PjPablo
01.11.2012 , 09:41 AM | #225
Quote: Originally Posted by Damioc View Post
Come on bioware we all want a answer to this!... (Im going to go and play this awesome game thats going to ruin wow now its called SWTOR honestly most of all these problems people post are THERE own issue wether internet or computer probs you cant blame it on bioware)

THANK YOU BIOWARE FOR THIS GAME WE WOULDNT OF HAD WITHOUT YOU!

seriously bioware gave us a gift lets be careful not to spit in there face....
Seriously? Jeez it's bad around here.

Tiron_Raptor's Avatar


Tiron_Raptor
01.11.2012 , 09:42 AM | #226
Quote: Originally Posted by Zlodo View Post
"streaming assets from the server", if it does happen, is not something that requires a second process, or to be rendered separately from assets loaded from the hard disk.

There's absolutely no reason to believe that any software rendering is involved anywhere.

All we possibly know is that there is a separate process (running locally) that might be doing some rendering.
Yep. And that it doesn't talk directly to the server, apparently.

The 'might be using software rendering' thing comes from the paper: it's suggested as the best way to secure the process, by preventing a hardware bypass of the protection.
One day my body will be able to take my brain out in public without it embarrassing us.

miliways's Avatar


miliways
01.11.2012 , 09:42 AM | #227
Quote: Originally Posted by KerinKor View Post
While everything you said is true, that's not what is being theorised.

Read the paper that guy dug up, it's clear that only a small part would need to be subject to this 'remoting' to achieve the 'protection' being talked about, yet big enough to cause the huge FPS and lag problems prople are seeing.
NO. I read the paper, I understand the concept.

Several of the claims being made are VERIFY-ABLY false.

Quote:
Disabled High Res Textures? Sending the higher quality images would result in a tremendous increase in the memory load and bandwidth usage of the server. They could also just be too much for the remote renderer server to handle, and had to be disabled to prevent performance degradation.
High res images are indeed in the game. Click on your intercom, there they are.

SO THAT RIGHT THERE IS A LOAD OF BALONEY.

"its clear that only a small part would need to be subject to this remoting"

I just went and read that entire paper just to be sure. NO. NONONONONO.

You don't seem to understand what you're saying. There's only a few ways this could be done:

You can render the whole scene remotely, which is what the paper describes. You use a low-resolution version locally, and when you stop moving the image, you send your viewpoint settings to the server, and the server renders THE WHOLE IMAGE. So in this way, the server would have to render EVERY frame of EVERY scene for EVERY user, in real-time. This would be the equivalent to playing SWTOR on OnLive. This would require a VERY, VERY large number of servers (we're talking about a server for every 5 people, or something, so thats like 100,000 servers. ABSOLUTELY INSANE. There's no way that EVERY SINGLE USER of SWTOR is playing OnLive style. Bioware would have a hard enough time setting up the 200+ servers for the game connectivity, much less handle ALL the rendering on their side).
In this method, you'd only be streaming the screen picture, the final image. That wouldn't be too infeasible bandwidth wise, it'd be the same as OnLive or Neflix movie streaming. But again, the server infrastructure is BEYOND IMPOSSIBLE.

The other way, as what you SEEM to THINK they're doing (but the paper does not talk about this AT ALL, in fact) would be to send the animation data over the wire, and have the home machine render the scene. This would be pointless to security on many levels, (You could collect the animation data as it goes over the wire, you could hack the rendering software, as the paper itself admits) AND it would be IMPOSSIBLE with current latency and bandwidth.

Imagine each time you tried to hit an ability, your computer started a 2MB download. When it finishes, you get to see the animation. Its going to be MUCH, MUCH MUCH MUCH longer than what you're seeing in game.

You're wrong, you don't know what your'e talking about, or you're trolling.


PLEASE, DO NOT GIVE CREDIT TO THIS INSANE IDEA. TOR IS NOT STREAMING TEXTURES OR ANIMATIONS. THIS IS BONKERS WRONG.

miliways's Avatar


miliways
01.11.2012 , 09:44 AM | #228
Quote: Originally Posted by themacr View Post
Isn't this EXCACTLY what Onlive is doing?

anywho, I agree with you that rendering ALL graphics, ALL models and ALL animations would seem very implausible because of the reasons you mention. It would not be worth doing considering the immense costs you'd have to make.

BUT, rendering only character models for instance? Or only certain key quest givers to prevent pirate server? I'm no expert but wouldn't it be possible?
No, this is not possible. See my above post. This is completely crazy. There is absolutely NO WAY WHATSOEVER.

Tiron_Raptor's Avatar


Tiron_Raptor
01.11.2012 , 09:45 AM | #229
Quote: Originally Posted by miliways View Post
...

"its clear that only a small part would need to be subject to this remoting"

I just went and read that entire paper just to be sure. NO. NONONONONO.

You don't seem to understand what you're saying. There's only a few ways this could be done:

You can render the whole scene remotely, which is what the paper describes. You use a low-resolution version locally, and when you stop moving the image, you send your viewpoint settings to the server, and the server renders THE WHOLE IMAGE. So in this way, the server would have to render EVERY frame of EVERY scene for EVERY user, in real-time. This would be the equivalent to playing SWTOR on OnLive. This would require a VERY, VERY large number of servers (we're talking about a server for every 5 people, or something, so thats like 100,000 servers. ABSOLUTELY INSANE. There's no way that EVERY SINGLE USER of SWTOR is playing OnLive style. Bioware would have a hard enough time setting up the 200+ servers for the game connectivity, much less handle ALL the rendering on their side).
In this method, you'd only be streaming the screen picture, the final image. That wouldn't be too infeasible bandwidth wise, it'd be the same as OnLive or Neflix movie streaming. But again, the server infrastructure is BEYOND IMPOSSIBLE.

The other way, as what you SEEM to THINK they're doing (but the paper does not talk about this AT ALL, in fact) would be to send the animation data over the wire, and have the home machine render the scene. This would be pointless to security on many levels, (You could collect the animation data as it goes over the wire, you could hack the rendering software, as the paper itself admits) AND it would be IMPOSSIBLE with current latency and bandwidth.

...


PLEASE, DO NOT GIVE CREDIT TO THIS INSANE IDEA. TOR IS NOT STREAMING TEXTURES OR ANIMATIONS. THIS IS BONKERS WRONG.
The 'idea' has nothing to do with textures or animations: it is specifically designed to protect models, and as such would only affect the textures and animations as side-effects, either because of resource use problems or lag introduced by the sheer difficulty of the process.

We also suspect the 'remote' rendering is being handled by the second swtor.exe process, as it seems to be related to a file with the name 'remoterendererserver'
One day my body will be able to take my brain out in public without it embarrassing us.

Sodalazer's Avatar


Sodalazer
01.11.2012 , 09:45 AM | #230
if this is true, then it might explain why SOME people have amazing FPS at like 4am in the night or something.

but at peak hours fps drops to 10 fps in warzone or something.

i myself noticed something similar.

i had a day off at work, and logged on the game at 07:40

i got into a WZ, and for some reason, i felt that the game ran waayyy smoother.

later at the day, it's back to it's old usual 20fps