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Soa's Nightmare Tuning


Cranberries's Avatar


Cranberries
01.08.2012 , 12:50 AM | #1
This is a complaint about Soa on Nightmare mode.

This fight is currently impossible to do on either 8 or 16 man. Completely impossible. Irae AoD's kill (source) was actually tuned on Hardmode and for me Hardmode difficulty is fine. Infact it's tuned to be excellent on hardmode. The problem is specifically Nightmare mode.

Below is hard mathematics using the real values of Mind Traps on Nightmare mode, the ability CDs as well as the health of Soa, the Infernal One. Nerds beware.

The problem I'm talking about are the absolutely impossible DPS requirements necessary to kill the Mind Traps in phase 3. On 8 man Nightmare the Mind Traps have 220,000 health and have a 20 second timer between (18 sec cd + 2 sec cast on Soa). Assuming a standard Nightmare mode setup: 1 tank, 2 healers, 5 DPS:

220,000 / 20 (CD) = 11,000 group DPS over 20 seconds.
11,000 / 5 (number of DPS) = 2200
= 2200 DPS sustained for 20 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

The following numbers assume a DPS is never trapped - assuming a DPS is trapped:

220,000 / 20 (CD) = 11,000 group DPS over 20 seconds.
11,000 / 4 (number of DPS) = 2750
= 2750 DPS sustained for 20 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

Considering there are ALWAYS two times when a Mind Trap and Recovery phase interlink (ie: the recovery phase will occur as a Mind Trap has been spawned). This means for the 10 second period of Recovery (where Soa needs to be DPSd as you have 4 Recovery phases before enrage) you would need to kill the Mind Trap within 10 seconds before the next spawns:

220,000 / 10 (CD) = 22,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.
22,000 / 5 (number of DPS) = 4400
= 4400 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

The following numbers assume a DPS is never trapped - assuming a DPS is trapped:

220,000 / 10 (CD) = 22,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.
22,000 / 4 (number of DPS) = 5500
= 5500 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

Now, we move onto the DPS requirements to beat Soa before/during the 4th Recovery (Soa enrages 5 seconds before the 4th Recovery phase). This means you have 40 seconds maximum to deal 450,000 damage in 40 seconds:

450,000 / 40 = 11,250 group DPS over 40 seconds
11,250 / 5 = 2250
= 2250 DPS sustained for 4 x 10 second periods in order to "do your part".

Now, because of the Mind Trap mechanic we should assume the worst - a DPS is trapped during 2 of the 4 Recovery phases:

450,000 / 40 = 11,250 group DPS over 40 secons
11,250 / 4.5 = 2500
= 2500 DPS sustained for 4 x 10 second periods in order to compensate for the Mind Trap mechanic.

If we use the same maths for 16 man (note: in 16 man the boss has x 2 hp and Mind Traps have their CD cut in half so the same DPS would be needed assuming 2 tanks, 4 healers and 10 DPS - however - for this mathematical examination we will use 1 tank and 2 healers (thus 13 DPS):

220,000 / 10 (CD) = 22,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.
22,000 / 13 (number of DPS) = 1692.3
= 1692.3 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

The following numbers assume a DPS is never trapped - assuming a DPS is trapped:

220,000 / 10 (CD) = 22,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.
22,000 / 12 (number of DPS) = 1833.3
= 1833.3 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

Now the Mind Trap and Recovery mechanic happens on, again, 2 of the 4 Recovery phases so a raid group would ignore the Mind Trap > DPS Soa > Kill the Mind Trap as another one spawns requiring 440,000 damage from the 13 DPS over 10 seconds to stop getting overwhelmed.

440,000 / 10 (CD) = 44,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.
44,000 / 13 (number of DPS) = 3384.6
= 3384.6 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

Assuming 1 DPS is trapped:

440,000 / 10 (CD) = 44,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.
44,000 / 12 (number of DPS) = 3666.6
= 3666.6 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

Assuming 2 DPS are trapped:

440,000 / 10 (CD) = 44,000 group DPS over 10 seconds.
44,000 / 11 (number of DPS) = 4400
= 4400 DPS sustained for 10 seconds in order to kill a Mind Trap before another spawns.

Now because Soa has just double the health from Nightmare mode on 8 man, that's 900,000 health in 40 seconds.

900,000 / 40 = 22,500 group DPS over 40 seconds
22,500 / 13 = 1730.7
= 1730.7 DPS sustained for 4 x 10 second periods in order to "do your part".

--------------------------------------

I'm all for hard encounters. I enjoy hard encounters. However encounters which are mathematically impossible are not. This is just punishing for people who want to strive for world firsts. The numbers posted are simply impossible to achieve. Simply impossible. It wouldn't matter if we had addons to tell us our optimal DPS rotation, or addons to tell us the exact milisecond a Mind Trap spawned, or damage meters and combat logs. These numbers are just unrealistic to meet and it's a bloody disappointment.

Soa was fun on hardmode, on Nightmare mode it's not hard. It's not easy. It's impossible - which isn't fun, engaging or exciting. Note: I complained about the exact same thing when C'thun was impossible to beat.

Cranberries's Avatar


Cranberries
01.08.2012 , 02:08 AM | #2
Bump. Issue needs addressing as it's not addressed in 1.1. >_<

JHarkrider's Avatar


JHarkrider
01.08.2012 , 02:11 AM | #3
Ouch, those numbers do seem a bit... impossible to achieve.

I hope this gets looked at. Good luck with it in the future.
.

Cranberries's Avatar


Cranberries
01.08.2012 , 02:16 AM | #4
Imagine it another way. If you've done Nightmare Duel of Fates (otherwise Infernal Council) you'll know the Marauders (high hp mobs) have 111,000~ health. The timer is 2 minutes:

110,000 / 120 = 916.666

In my gear (I DPSd it this week, in full healing gear) I killed it in 92 seconds:

110,000 / 92 = 1195.65

To reach the individual DPS targets I would need to kill my 110,000 hp target in:

110,000 / 2200 = 50 seconds.

50 seconds!? Not possible.

JHarkrider's Avatar


JHarkrider
01.08.2012 , 02:21 AM | #5
Yeah, seems like they just said "give everything more health" and slapped a new label on it.

That's pretty lame.

I personally haven't started endgame content yet (still leveling, actually, and taking my sweet time), but in previous MMOs I was always in endgame guilds doing hardmodes, heroics, etc. so I'll probably end up doing the same thing in TOR.

Encounters with impossible/ridiculous expectations aren't enjoyable at all. Hopefully they look into this and get things re-tuned quickly.
.

Cranberries's Avatar


Cranberries
01.08.2012 , 09:16 AM | #6
Well you can't even attempt it. It's pretty pointless to attempt at the moment.
WoW Responsiveness vs SWTOR responsiveness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUQ1J...eature=related

rfatcheric's Avatar


rfatcheric
01.08.2012 , 09:20 AM | #7
I have to assume that you've been playing other MMOs in the past, that have been in line with bleeding edge content.

So I also have to assume you recognize a gear check encounter when you see one.

This is one of those. Those numbers shouldn't be impossible if everyone is wearing optimal gear with optimal specs and optimal mods/armoring, etc.

Cranberries's Avatar


Cranberries
01.08.2012 , 09:23 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by rfatcheric View Post
I have to assume that you've been playing other MMOs in the past, that have been in line with bleeding edge content.

So I also have to assume you recognize a gear check encounter when you see one.

This is one of those. Those numbers shouldn't be impossible if everyone is wearing optimal gear with optimal specs and optimal mods/armoring, etc.
We have optimal gear. Our best geared DPS killed his 110,000~ hp add on Duel of Fates (infernal council) in 73 seconds. Nowhere near the DPS needed to be able to kill these Mind Traps in time.

Please, don't post about stuff you really have 0 clue about. This encounter is just impossible at the moment. There's no other way around it.
WoW Responsiveness vs SWTOR responsiveness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUQ1J...eature=related

Malard_'s Avatar


Malard_
01.08.2012 , 10:17 AM | #9
I'm curious, (I'm not discrediting what you say in any situation) but your best dps, what class and what gear (can you be specific)?

We've just hoping to clean up Hard mode tonight as a guild, we've got a little bit of rakata (140 rating gear) but overwhelmingly we are wearing 136 gear or worse.

It's only a supposition but potentially to complete nightmare the majority of the players will need full 140 (or as near as possible) ?

Faxxon's Avatar


Faxxon
01.08.2012 , 10:28 AM | #10
More encounters soley reliable on gear, this games really exciting!