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Darth Vader is garbage


Deejon_Loy's Avatar


Deejon_Loy
01.07.2012 , 02:34 AM | #11
... I'm not exactly sure it I'd accept Starkiller as canon... just saying (especially if we include TFU, Shaak Ti' has been killed off 3 separate times since Grievous was made a General). But at any rate, it's best to explain this from an RPG standpoint.

Let's say Max Lvl is 50, which would be Palpatine, Yoda is 48, Mace Windu is 45, Obi-Wan (by Ep III) is 37. Minimum for Jedi Master is 35, Anakin was really something like a 31 and had the potential (if he lived to age 70 with all of his limbs still intact) to create a level 55. When he embraced the Dark Side, his anger added 5 Lvls automatically, making him a 36 to challenge Obi-Wan, and did a very good job at it, but his arrogance got ahead of his judgement, and he paid dearly.

Now being entirely reliant on robotics just to stay alive, Anakin drops to a Lvl 15, with a +5 Anger bonus to give an even Lvl 20. Palpatine has now lost a huge part of his investment, but since he's killed off all the Force Users that were above Lvl 0, there's no reason to worry.

In comes Luke, who, since he's the offspring of a Jedi (according to Original SW Lore), has the potential to become MUCH more powerful than his father's own potential, and at a much faster rate, basically creating a Lvl 60 within the time it takes a normal Jedi to reach Lvl 30 (considering Anakin advanced so quickly, and was expected to continue that trait before his accident)... provided he receives the proper training. Thus Palpatine has legitimate concerns that "he could destroy us". In the event of not "practicing", Obi-Wan has dropped to a Lvl 18, and Palpatine to Lvl 35 by 0 BBY.

So the first Luke vs Vader duel, Luke is Lvl 12, facing off a Lvl 20 bc Vader believes by a display of power, and backing Luke into a corner, that his son will embrace the Dark Side.
Luke escapes however, and spends a year training to become a full-fledged Jedi at Lvl 15, with an added Lvl in Jabba's Palace. In reflection of Luke's confident words that Vader can return to the Light Side, his Anger Bonus is halved, dropping him to Lvl 18; while Luke's kindled Anger Bonus at the prospect of Leia turning to the Dark Side pushes him to Lvl 21 (16 + 5) and easily defeats Vader.

When Vader turns on Palpatine, he obviously succeeds his Strength-check (those servo motors) and his Compassion/Determination Bonus allows him to Crit on his Will-save, thus he's able to toss Palpatine down the Abyss.

But yes, in a Revan vs Vader match up, Revan is definitely a Lvl 40 by the time he faces Malak at the end of KotOR, (which is also pretty much where he was when Bastilla erased his memory) so he would have smoked Vader hands down.

Foxfirega's Avatar


Foxfirega
01.07.2012 , 02:36 AM | #12
I'm afraid, dear OP, that I fail to find anything compelling in your listed statements and therefore am left with no recourse but to dismiss them as just a poorly typed subjective opinion of a matter that lacks what must have been exhaustive analysis of the situation.

To put this in vernacular I am more sure you are to understand:

Cool story, bro. ob
'Your name is in the mouth of others - be sure it has teeth.' - Maxim 16, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

Faleena's Avatar


Faleena
01.07.2012 , 02:37 AM | #13
As much as I hate saying this, Vader was seriously OP'ed during the prequels as Anakin but then they nerfed him as Vader. So I vote, Anakin: yes, Vader: no
"If we're not around to protect the innocent, who will?"

Tower's Avatar


Tower
01.07.2012 , 02:59 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Deejon_Loy View Post
... I'm not exactly sure it I'd accept Starkiller as canon... just saying (especially if we include TFU, Shaak Ti' has been killed off 3 separate times since Grievous was made a General). But at any rate, it's best to explain this from an RPG standpoint.

Let's say Max Lvl is 50, which would be Palpatine, Yoda is 48, Mace Windu is 45, Obi-Wan (by Ep III) is 37. Minimum for Jedi Master is 35, Anakin was really something like a 31 and had the potential (if he lived to age 70 with all of his limbs still intact) to create a level 55. When he embraced the Dark Side, his anger added 5 Lvls automatically, making him a 36 to challenge Obi-Wan, and did a very good job at it, but his arrogance got ahead of his judgement, and he paid dearly.

Now being entirely reliant on robotics just to stay alive, Anakin drops to a Lvl 15, with a +5 Anger bonus to give an even Lvl 20. Palpatine has now lost a huge part of his investment, but since he's killed off all the Force Users that were above Lvl 0, there's no reason to worry.

In comes Luke, who, since he's the offspring of a Jedi (according to Original SW Lore), has the potential to become MUCH more powerful than his father's own potential, and at a much faster rate, basically creating a Lvl 60 within the time it takes a normal Jedi to reach Lvl 30 (considering Anakin advanced so quickly, and was expected to continue that trait before his accident)... provided he receives the proper training. Thus Palpatine has legitimate concerns that "he could destroy us". In the event of not "practicing", Obi-Wan has dropped to a Lvl 18, and Palpatine to Lvl 35 by 0 BBY.

So the first Luke vs Vader duel, Luke is Lvl 12, facing off a Lvl 20 bc Vader believes by a display of power, and backing Luke into a corner, that his son will embrace the Dark Side.
Luke escapes however, and spends a year training to become a full-fledged Jedi at Lvl 15, with an added Lvl in Jabba's Palace. In reflection of Luke's confident words that Vader can return to the Light Side, his Anger Bonus is halved, dropping him to Lvl 18; while Luke's kindled Anger Bonus at the prospect of Leia turning to the Dark Side pushes him to Lvl 21 (16 + 5) and easily defeats Vader.

When Vader turns on Palpatine, he obviously succeeds his Strength-check (those servo motors) and his Compassion/Determination Bonus allows him to Crit on his Will-save, thus he's able to toss Palpatine down the Abyss.

But yes, in a Revan vs Vader match up, Revan is definitely a Lvl 40 by the time he faces Malak at the end of KotOR, (which is also pretty much where he was when Bastilla erased his memory) so he would have smoked Vader hands down.

Best descriptive post I have seen in ages!

darth_freefall's Avatar


darth_freefall
01.07.2012 , 05:02 AM | #15
I will let someone else answer this for me.


Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
Sources? force unleashed. He upgraded his suit to become resistant to force lightning. As for his combat abilities? I'll provide quotes. Not to mention, one I don't have access to, is when he fought 8 jedi and managed to murder nearly all of them. Destroyed a jedi master among those 8 without his lightsaber.

For him getting over his suit's weaknesses in rise of lord vader? I'll find those quotes for you. In the meantime. It's been stated by Lucas in the commentary that Vader is 80% as strong as Sidious. Here is a quote from Rise of Lord vader. Paper back novel page 319-320.

"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begin."

"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."

Right here it shows that currently Sidious fears Vader. That he's a threat to his mastery of the dark side. Just prior the book was talking about Sidious views on the rule of two and how he remembered when he killed his master. Vader is a threat to him. He's THAT powerful but Sidious feels in the future. He won't be. He'll become so powerful that there wouldn't be a need for another apprentice. That time hasn't come yet. First it states he's becoming more powerful now that he's finally tapping deep into the dark side and then it states in the future he won't need to fear him.


"Time and again the two Jedi attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate the Jedi strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed."

"She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems."

"Calling on the Force, Starstone fell on him in a fury, striking wildly and repeatedly, and with anger. Moments into her attack she understood that Vader was merely allowing her to vent, as the Temple's swordmaster had often done with his students, allowing them to believe that they were driving him back, when in fact he was simply encouraging them to wear themselves out before disarming them in one rapid motion."
"He flicked his blade, precisely, economically, forcing her back and back..."

page 278.

Page 277

Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade."

This was against, admittedly, two skilled duelists. He was also facing Starstone, Kulka, Forte, Jambe, Nam, and Klossi. None of them could match him. Against Roan Shryne, he slashed at his legs at one point and Vader leapt over his blow, twisted in the air, and landed behind him.

From force unleashed..

The apprentice crouched facedown in the snow, surrounded by rubble. His breath came in agonized, short gasps, but he was grateful for each one. He should be dead. That blow should have killed anyone. The fact that he was breathing testified to the one mistake his Master had done.
He had been rebuilt tougher than before.

Vader casually tossed him toward the icy cliff.

He though he was ready -and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.
A simple double stroke, up then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrist and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a Telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides...

Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.
The apprentice vowed not to give him one...

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near...

Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith Lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath. [...] The Dark Lord was instantly on his feet...

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the Force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.
For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

Note that the apprentice had defeated multiple Jedi masters himself, was a power house in the force, and was extremely agile. If you want more sources. Go ahead. But it's obvious. Vader was by far one of the most powerful Sith. Even in his suit. Even Sidious regarded him as a threat.
Vader is far stronger than people think, his portrayal was limited by the technology of the 1970s

Vader will go toe to toe with just about any sith lord there is

xeviltoasterx's Avatar


xeviltoasterx
01.07.2012 , 11:31 AM | #16
GL has stated that Vader, after being put in the suit, was about 80% of Palpatine's power. Palpatine, also stated by GL, is the strongest Sith lord to have ever lived. Do the math

Had he not been put in the suit, he would have been twice as strong as Palpatine...once again, as stated by Lucas.


In regards to The Force Unleashed...I'm pretty sure as far as Shaak Ti's death goes, her death in TFU is canon. It's described in her Wookieepedia page as her actual death. Lucas has a HUGE part in TFU, in fact, the only SW video game he ever really had a part in. It is canon and is what happened between eps 3 and 4. As far as her other death scenes, wasn't the ep 3 one a deleted scene? I don't know the others, if anyone could explain...

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
01.07.2012 , 11:52 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Deejon_Loy View Post
... I'm not exactly sure it I'd accept Starkiller as canon... just saying (especially if we include TFU, Shaak Ti' has been killed off 3 separate times since Grievous was made a General). But at any rate, it's best to explain this from an RPG standpoint.

Let's say Max Lvl is 50, which would be Palpatine, Yoda is 48, Mace Windu is 45, Obi-Wan (by Ep III) is 37. Minimum for Jedi Master is 35, Anakin was really something like a 31 and had the potential (if he lived to age 70 with all of his limbs still intact) to create a level 55. When he embraced the Dark Side, his anger added 5 Lvls automatically, making him a 36 to challenge Obi-Wan, and did a very good job at it, but his arrogance got ahead of his judgement, and he paid dearly.

Now being entirely reliant on robotics just to stay alive, Anakin drops to a Lvl 15, with a +5 Anger bonus to give an even Lvl 20. Palpatine has now lost a huge part of his investment, but since he's killed off all the Force Users that were above Lvl 0, there's no reason to worry.

In comes Luke, who, since he's the offspring of a Jedi (according to Original SW Lore), has the potential to become MUCH more powerful than his father's own potential, and at a much faster rate, basically creating a Lvl 60 within the time it takes a normal Jedi to reach Lvl 30 (considering Anakin advanced so quickly, and was expected to continue that trait before his accident)... provided he receives the proper training. Thus Palpatine has legitimate concerns that "he could destroy us". In the event of not "practicing", Obi-Wan has dropped to a Lvl 18, and Palpatine to Lvl 35 by 0 BBY.

So the first Luke vs Vader duel, Luke is Lvl 12, facing off a Lvl 20 bc Vader believes by a display of power, and backing Luke into a corner, that his son will embrace the Dark Side.
Luke escapes however, and spends a year training to become a full-fledged Jedi at Lvl 15, with an added Lvl in Jabba's Palace. In reflection of Luke's confident words that Vader can return to the Light Side, his Anger Bonus is halved, dropping him to Lvl 18; while Luke's kindled Anger Bonus at the prospect of Leia turning to the Dark Side pushes him to Lvl 21 (16 + 5) and easily defeats Vader.

When Vader turns on Palpatine, he obviously succeeds his Strength-check (those servo motors) and his Compassion/Determination Bonus allows him to Crit on his Will-save, thus he's able to toss Palpatine down the Abyss.

But yes, in a Revan vs Vader match up, Revan is definitely a Lvl 40 by the time he faces Malak at the end of KotOR, (which is also pretty much where he was when Bastilla erased his memory) so he would have smoked Vader hands down.
It was actually 4 years that Luke trained till ROTJ.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
01.07.2012 , 04:03 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Deejon_Loy View Post
... I'm not exactly sure it I'd accept Starkiller as canon... just saying (especially if we include TFU, Shaak Ti' has been killed off 3 separate times since Grievous was made a General). But at any rate, it's best to explain this from an RPG standpoint.

Let's say Max Lvl is 50, which would be Palpatine, Yoda is 48, Mace Windu is 45, Obi-Wan (by Ep III) is 37. Minimum for Jedi Master is 35, Anakin was really something like a 31 and had the potential (if he lived to age 70 with all of his limbs still intact) to create a level 55. When he embraced the Dark Side, his anger added 5 Lvls automatically, making him a 36 to challenge Obi-Wan, and did a very good job at it, but his arrogance got ahead of his judgement, and he paid dearly.

Now being entirely reliant on robotics just to stay alive, Anakin drops to a Lvl 15, with a +5 Anger bonus to give an even Lvl 20. Palpatine has now lost a huge part of his investment, but since he's killed off all the Force Users that were above Lvl 0, there's no reason to worry.

In comes Luke, who, since he's the offspring of a Jedi (according to Original SW Lore), has the potential to become MUCH more powerful than his father's own potential, and at a much faster rate, basically creating a Lvl 60 within the time it takes a normal Jedi to reach Lvl 30 (considering Anakin advanced so quickly, and was expected to continue that trait before his accident)... provided he receives the proper training. Thus Palpatine has legitimate concerns that "he could destroy us". In the event of not "practicing", Obi-Wan has dropped to a Lvl 18, and Palpatine to Lvl 35 by 0 BBY.

So the first Luke vs Vader duel, Luke is Lvl 12, facing off a Lvl 20 bc Vader believes by a display of power, and backing Luke into a corner, that his son will embrace the Dark Side.
Luke escapes however, and spends a year training to become a full-fledged Jedi at Lvl 15, with an added Lvl in Jabba's Palace. In reflection of Luke's confident words that Vader can return to the Light Side, his Anger Bonus is halved, dropping him to Lvl 18; while Luke's kindled Anger Bonus at the prospect of Leia turning to the Dark Side pushes him to Lvl 21 (16 + 5) and easily defeats Vader.

When Vader turns on Palpatine, he obviously succeeds his Strength-check (those servo motors) and his Compassion/Determination Bonus allows him to Crit on his Will-save, thus he's able to toss Palpatine down the Abyss.

But yes, in a Revan vs Vader match up, Revan is definitely a Lvl 40 by the time he faces Malak at the end of KotOR, (which is also pretty much where he was when Bastilla erased his memory) so he would have smoked Vader hands down.
This post is wrong, terribly terribly wrong.
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.07.2012 , 04:17 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Deejon_Loy View Post
... I'm not exactly sure it I'd accept Starkiller as canon... just saying (especially if we include TFU, Shaak Ti' has been killed off 3 separate times since Grievous was made a General). But at any rate, it's best to explain this from an RPG standpoint.

Let's say Max Lvl is 50, which would be Palpatine, Yoda is 48, Mace Windu is 45, Obi-Wan (by Ep III) is 37. Minimum for Jedi Master is 35, Anakin was really something like a 31 and had the potential (if he lived to age 70 with all of his limbs still intact) to create a level 55. When he embraced the Dark Side, his anger added 5 Lvls automatically, making him a 36 to challenge Obi-Wan, and did a very good job at it, but his arrogance got ahead of his judgement, and he paid dearly.

Now being entirely reliant on robotics just to stay alive, Anakin drops to a Lvl 15, with a +5 Anger bonus to give an even Lvl 20. Palpatine has now lost a huge part of his investment, but since he's killed off all the Force Users that were above Lvl 0, there's no reason to worry.

In comes Luke, who, since he's the offspring of a Jedi (according to Original SW Lore), has the potential to become MUCH more powerful than his father's own potential, and at a much faster rate, basically creating a Lvl 60 within the time it takes a normal Jedi to reach Lvl 30 (considering Anakin advanced so quickly, and was expected to continue that trait before his accident)... provided he receives the proper training. Thus Palpatine has legitimate concerns that "he could destroy us". In the event of not "practicing", Obi-Wan has dropped to a Lvl 18, and Palpatine to Lvl 35 by 0 BBY.

So the first Luke vs Vader duel, Luke is Lvl 12, facing off a Lvl 20 bc Vader believes by a display of power, and backing Luke into a corner, that his son will embrace the Dark Side.
Luke escapes however, and spends a year training to become a full-fledged Jedi at Lvl 15, with an added Lvl in Jabba's Palace. In reflection of Luke's confident words that Vader can return to the Light Side, his Anger Bonus is halved, dropping him to Lvl 18; while Luke's kindled Anger Bonus at the prospect of Leia turning to the Dark Side pushes him to Lvl 21 (16 + 5) and easily defeats Vader.

When Vader turns on Palpatine, he obviously succeeds his Strength-check (those servo motors) and his Compassion/Determination Bonus allows him to Crit on his Will-save, thus he's able to toss Palpatine down the Abyss.

But yes, in a Revan vs Vader match up, Revan is definitely a Lvl 40 by the time he faces Malak at the end of KotOR, (which is also pretty much where he was when Bastilla erased his memory) so he would have smoked Vader hands down.
Starkiller is Canon. It was approved by Lucas. It's Canon unless something retcons it. If it retcons only a portion of it. The rest is still Canon. The novel is more canon than the game though.

Deejon_Loy's Avatar


Deejon_Loy
01.07.2012 , 06:01 PM | #20
xeviltoasterx > There were 2 deleted Shaak Ti death scenes from ROS, the first made it onto the DVD under "Deleted Scenes" (where she is killed by Grevious), but when the whole sequence of Obi-Wan and Anakin cutting through the floor was itself cut and replaced, they re-filmed her death with her trying to protect youngling Jedis during the attack on the temple (I think Anakin was actually supposed to be the one who killed her), but that was also abandoned "for timing/editing purposes". So in one movie, she was supposed to die twice.

Wolfninjajedi > NH is 0 BBY, ESB is 3 ABY, and ROTJ is 4 ABY according to GL's own official timeline.