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Are Yoda and Ben cowards?


psychogobstopper's Avatar


psychogobstopper
01.06.2012 , 12:29 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Durzaka View Post
my question is, why didnt Ben start training Luke earlier?
Perhaps it took Obi-Wan that long to feel that he was ready to take a new apprentice. After all, at the time he gave Luke to Owen and Beru, he had just spent a little over ten years mentoring Anakin, his very first student, and look what happened - Anakin fell to the Dark Side. When Obi-Wan did start teaching Luke, it was out of necessity, because the Rebel Alliance needed General Kenobi, and Obi-Wan couldn't leave Luke on Tatooine without his protection.

Entilzha's Avatar


Entilzha
01.06.2012 , 12:42 PM | #22
Obi Wan "loved Anakin like brother", so he couldn't bring himself to kill him outright. But it looked like Anakin wasn't going to survive his wounds and his "location" on the hill, so he just left.

I am reminded of a line from Batman Begins - "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you" - Batman to Roz'Alguld (sp) on the tram near the end of the movie.

By the time Obi Wan found out that Anakin had survived, it was too late to do anything about it.

Edit: So no, I don't think Obi Wan and Yoda were cowards, they sacrificed themselves (by living the way the did) in order to free the galaxy at sometime in the future (aprox 20 years).

The_Anf's Avatar


The_Anf
01.06.2012 , 12:43 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by JadeBranch View Post
I'm not sure why this needs to be argued. Isn't it obvious that it's a plot device that the third movie crapped out to set up the fourth movie? I would rather try to look at it in a different direction than resort to the canon of the prequels to explain them. It's like the Alien movies. Do you really want to believe anything after Aliens happened? Really? I don't.
Argued? I don't think we are arguing about anything were discussing decisions of 2 major characters in SW.


Quote: Originally Posted by JadeBranch View Post
I think a more logical way would be to consider what did they do in this time period that we don't know about that would make their efforts to fight the empire seem impossible?
Well until they fill this time frame in I am forced to assume its what it looked like...hiding.


Quote: Originally Posted by JadeBranch View Post
But in a thread that wants to argue about this or that, my thoughts are probably not going to be desired here, I guess.
Again who is arguing? Why are you in a Star Wars disscussion forum if you don't want to discuss Star wars? Seems to me the thread isn't what is out of place here no offense intended I just mean its a disscussion forum.

and Jade I would gladly hear your thoughts on the matter...I think its something that needs to be discussed.
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The_Anf's Avatar


The_Anf
01.06.2012 , 12:45 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Entilzha View Post
Roz'Alguld (sp)

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Rhudian's Avatar


Rhudian
01.06.2012 , 12:57 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by The_Anf View Post
I get this but why then didn't Yoda take Luke with him or Ben? The Jedi always took force sensitives when they were toddlers...why was this different?
The nature of children and visibility.

If Obi-Wan had trained Luke on Tatooine, there's no doubt that Luke would have been discovered at some point. Maybe he'd show off his amazing powers to impress a girl, or save a Hutt larva from certain doom in its most desperate hour, never thinking that the whole boy-with-magical-gifts thing would guarantee a few destroyers dropping out of hyperspace on top of the lad's head.

Recklessness appears to be a hereditary trait in the Skywalker clan, after all. And Kenobi already has a history of nurturing fraternal relationships when a more paternal role is expected/called for.

This doesn't even get into more mystical measures of detection, like the fact that force-users seem to cause detectable ripples that known force-seers, such as Palpatine, would pick up on.


So, scratch the Obi-Wan thing. Let's give him to Yoda, instead. He's on a nice, isolated planet without other sentients, basically shielded from any probing of the force. There, he could be trained properly. He could, by the time he's a teenager, become a powerful force user. Let's say Yoda picked up a protocol droid, too, so the kid ends up learning to speak Basic properly.

So he deals with no one other than a wizened Jedi master and a subservient machine all of his life. The second he jets off of Dagobah to seek out a way to help bring down the emperor, he meets someone who seeks to take advantage of him. Lacking any real, practical social experience, the best we could hope for is that he attempts to 'fix' the offender with the force. Humility, compromise, trust, and understanding the motives of others are subjects that are tricky enough with Jedi. In any isolation/mini Academy/Dagobah scenario, he ends up being even worse in terms of social adjustment than his father, and an even easier pawn for the Emperor.


Having a hard, but not cruel childhood and having a teacher ready to jump in and rapidly bring him up to speed when he could be taught rapidly was probably one of the best options. At least as far as the goals of the Jedi are concerned.

Deathroll's Avatar


Deathroll
01.06.2012 , 01:14 PM | #26
Jesus...

First of all, Yoda wasn't bested by the Sidious, he fled after he almost defeated Sidious because he ran out of time. They went into hiding because they knew they were no match for the entire Galactic Republic. The jedi were thought of as traitors and they were to be killed on sight. The only way to preserve the jedi was to go into hiding and protect Anakin's children who would undoubtedly be force sensitive. Obi-wan couldn't train him in the force for **** loads of reasons. His connection to his father, he would have to be trained while living with his family which was forbidden (attachments). Finally, the reason he didn't kill Vader was because he couldn't bring himself to. He couldn't in the third, even after he cut off his arms and legs lol, he didnt finish him. Also he knew there was still light in Vader, but knew that he wasn't capable of bringing him back. But he knew that Luke could. **** the notion that Yoda and Obi-wan, two of the most powerful force users in history were cowards, **** it.

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iain_b
01.06.2012 , 01:19 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Vurdikt View Post
I don't know if coward is the right word. Maybe in some respects. Obi Wan was a type of coward for not finishing Vader, and for not just taking Luke and raising him himself. If he had done that Luke would have been far more capable. I think Yoda pretty much gave up though. Regardless, what they did at the end of episode III was really just a plot device used to make the beginning of episode IV make sense. One thing that doesn't make any sense to me is why they split up. Anakin had just become Vader, and had no power base to speak of really. If they had both gone after the Emperor together they may have stood a chance. Cut the head off the serpent so to speak. He had just established power, and the senate had yet to be dissolved, and he didn't really have an established heir. Bad tactical decision making for the sake of a poetic irony lol
Obi-Wan took it personally when Anakin fell to the darkside, he saw it as a personal fault in the way he trained Anakin.

As for Obi-wan and Yoda going into hiding, they went into exile. That's a bit different. Their only hope to preserve the jedi order was to get the two kids out of the reach of Vader and Palpatine and hope they would survive long enough to carry on the legacy eventually.
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PlagaNerezza
01.06.2012 , 01:21 PM | #28
It was more important to the Jedi Order that the two masters survive hidden from the Empire than train an apprentice.

It wasn't until Luke became a teenager that a rebellion of significance started to materialize. That would have meant all of Vader and the Emperor's time could be devoted to hunting Obi-wan and Yoda. They had no significant threats to there rule to give the two masters time to train a new generation of Jedi and as I recall there was significant history around the Emperor and Vader rounding up and killing force sensitives.

They wanted no challengers to their power and authority and they rightly feared a rise of another force user that could bring them both down.

What bothered me was the corruption of Anakin in the movies was very poorly done. It did not seem to me Anakin's power lust was that great to go from Jedi Knight to killer of children in mere momemts to wanting dominating the galaxy.

Personally I would have had Anakin slaughter the separatists. Attack the temple and than fight obi-wan. With Sith trials with the Emperor occurring between the separatists and the temple raid.
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micshaz
01.06.2012 , 01:22 PM | #29
....Because that's not what happened
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Gruug
01.06.2012 , 01:29 PM | #30
I read somewhere, perhaps in one of the many a EU books out there, that Obi and Yoda were not in total hiding. That on more then one occasion they were actully off their respective planets helping somewhere in the universe. They just did not leave often as they could not afford to be discovered "until the time is right". And as was mentioned above, the time was not right until the rebellion was in full swing.


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