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Sith Emperor vs Darth Sidious

S_W_LeGenD's Avatar

12.19.2013 , 08:07 PM | #841
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Right but the HoT still had a lot to do afterwards and so forth.
HoT did improve afterwards but Sith Emperor could be undermined only in his weakened state, when he had invested his powers in the most ambitious ritual to ever have been attempted but that plan was thwarted by efforts of Scourge and HoT.
My favorite Star Wars book: Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

My favorite Star Wars character: Vitiate

Aurbere's Avatar

12.19.2013 , 09:46 PM | #842
I think this is getting out of hand. As Lord and Master of these forums, I command you all to take a step back, relax, and, if you choose to, start over.

Do as I command or suffer my infinite wrath!
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar

12.19.2013 , 09:54 PM | #843
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I think this is getting out of hand. As Lord and Master of these forums, I command you all to take a step back, relax, and, if you choose to, start over.

Do as I command or suffer my infinite wrath!
Nope. Also start over what? We already know the winner. In fact I don't know why this was brought back in the 1st place.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar

12.19.2013 , 10:00 PM | #844
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Nope. Also start over what? We already know the winner. In fact I don't know why this was brought back in the 1st place.
The topic at hand, I mean. We all know Sidious would win, but we seem to have diverged.

Personally I would wish that this thread died.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

LordQordisz's Avatar

12.20.2013 , 01:51 AM | #845
I don't. Keep on keeping on. Unless of course we have to kowtow to those who say stop as they themselves post in the thread. I like the opposing opinions and good stuff is always brought up when people really believe in what they do on opposite spectrums.
Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken.

Beniboybling's Avatar

12.20.2013 , 05:17 AM | #846
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Pretty sure a Forcequake would knock Vitiate off his feet, or at least unbalance him.
Most likely, while its possible he could fix himself in place at least intially he would be caught of guard.

Giving Plagueis yet another chance to close the gap and slice him into ribbons.

Beniboybling's Avatar

12.20.2013 , 07:20 AM | #847
In response to post #839.

1. Legend this only reinforces my point. Darth Nyriss as clearly shown here actually attempted to raise a defense yet her own lightning tore through it. How is that possible? How would she be unable to handle her own power? She would not, as I have already stated it is impossible that Nyriss could have been incinerated immediately by an individual of equal caliber to herself, it just does not make logical sense. A being equal to her power would possess exactly the necessary strength in the Force to deflect such an attack, Nyriss attempts exactly that and yet her powers fail her.

Lets take a look at some other examples in Star Wars mythos of beings being subject to their own power:

Here Dooku deflects a bolt of his own lightning with little difficulty.

And here Sidious is subject to his own lightning and yet recovers seemingly without suffering injury, despite this lightning being responsible for the death of Galen Marek:
In both instances, these Force Users were able to handle their own power.

Now if Nyriss had been caught of guard and simply failed to raise a shield, it could be argued that that was the reason she was incinerated. But as you have just kindly demonstrated. She did raise a shield:
As quite clearly demonstrated here, she did not fail to raise the shield in time, she raised the shield, and it was torn apart. The shield she raised proved far to weak to deflect the energy.

The only instance in which this could happen is if the receiver was considerably less powerful, just like it would have been futile for Scourge or Meetra to raise a shield because it would have ripped them apart and killed them.

Yet Nyriss just demonstrated herself to be superior to both of them, at least in Meetra's weakened state.

How did this happen then? As I've already explain the only and I repeat only possible logical explanation is that she expended most of her energy performing her most lethal of attacks, leaving her with not enough energy to raise an adequate enough Force Shield that ripped her defenses apart. If you have another explanation, provide it.

Nor should we underestimate the scope of this power. Yes the mind control that the Sith Emperor attempted was highly advanced, but as you well know (and have repeatedly made clear) Nyriss was not wielding a simple lightning attack. She was conjuring a potent storm of dark side energy, her most lethal and deadly attack. To quote:
It is quite obvious here that Nyriss was gathering her energy for an extremely powerful and advanced attack that Scourge fully recognized that it would be impossible for him to defend against.

You yourself stated this to be the most lethal expression of Darth Nyriss' power - I expect it demanded quite a lot of energy. Remembering that Sith Lightning is a powerful expression of raw dark side energy. Interrupting such an attack and sending such potent energy back at her would have most likely left her energy reserves drained, which is the only feasible explanation for why she why her shield was torn apart and she was reduced to ash.

Now, you stated that Nyriss could incinerate powerful Force Wielders such as Scourge and Meetra with her lightning, the above demonstrates this to be pure assumption and likely not true. Can she kill them? Yes, but even then only in a weakened state, and even then her lightning is incomparable to top-tier Sith such as Sidious.

I strong advise you refer to my other posts for more information on this matter.

2. And yet as I already stated that Dooku could do the same. See here. Dooku picks Kenobi up and flings him away with a wave of his hand. Except Nyriss was only capable of Force pushing not gripping Scourge. Furthermore Kenobi was rendered unconscious by this attack, Scourge on the other hand remained very much aware. You should therefore add Count Dooku to the list of those who have "sent X packing" with a wave of their hand.

That is exactly what Dooku did, and he has additional impressive TK feats beyond that. In this respect it is you who are underestimating Dooku and continuing to ignore his impressive abilities. This post doesn't even mention him. He was believed to the Chosen One for good reason. I expect you to actual take notice of Dooku in your next response.

3. Yes of course I'm serious. Given that it only took Sidious several decades to achieve mastery over tutaminis you would think that over nine hundred years a Force user of almost equal stature could achieve the same no? Please provide some evidence that demonstrates Yoda to be lacking in his ability to wield tutaminis. And please abandon your ridiculous claim that Revan is equal to the power of Yoda or respond to the arguments I have made.

Yoda's feats with tutaminis are notably more impressive that Revan's, for unlike Revan he was able to contain and redirect the full power of a top-tier Sith Lord whereas Revan was utterly subdued. Do not overlook this.

4. Don't be childish and explain to me what your point is.

Now lets move on to your other points.

1. More silly outbursts? I'll ignore the tone. You are claiming that the Sith Emperor could incinerate Scourge and Meetra, yet I have debunked your evidence that suggests this, so you cannot assert it. Regardless Darth Sidious' power is equally "mind boggling" and that is why he is regarded as the most powerful expression of the dark side which yes means he is more powerful than the Sith Emperor. Delve into that realm and you'll only find that the Sith Emperor is once again surpassed. Sidious is more powerful, it is a canonical fact. The Reader's Companion has never 'hyped up' Yoda or Sidious before or made any canonical statements regarding their abilities, so Pablo is not refusing to do anything, he is merely continuing his duties of which these are not.

Instead look to the New Essential Chronology and The Complete Visual Dictionary. These texts are those that have made statements, among others, claiming Darth Sidious to be the most powerful dark sider in galactic history. And these texts have yet to be updated or replaced, the statements made in them are therefore still valid.

You do not have the authority I'm afraid to refute that. Nor does BioWare for that matter.

Now concerning the Force Storm, as the Book of Anger explains the Force Maelstrom - a power that at its core creates storms of crackling lighting, is an expression of pure malice or rather rage. And that the Force Storm is a direct extrapolation of this particular expression of rage. So the Dark Empire endnotes highlighting rage as one of the prerequisites is referring the a pure expression of the dark side which is the textbook definition of Force lightning. The very fact it is called a storm indicates an integral elemental aspect.

Could would shouda arguments do not cut it. If the Sith Emperor had acquired this power he would have most certainly used it. In order to enact his final plan we dispatched several minions to perform genocide on a massive scale, this could easily have been achieved by summoning a Force Storm and dispatching it to multiple worlds to cause enormous devastation. Which he could have done from the safety of Dromund Kaas. Claiming that he may be capable of this is pure assumption, I prefer to look at the facts and the facts show he has not done this.

And again, please demonstrate to me how Sidious' standards bolts of energy are inferior to anyone. Then they have proven powerful enough to overwhelm some of the most powerful Force Wielders of the era.

I strongly suggest you refer to this post for elaboration.

Now in regards to the Jedi Strike Team, you have completely missed the point here. Yes eventually the Sith Emperor's Force Storm proves to much for them, however that does not change the fact that as shown in your first image all but the HoT and Tol Braga are stunned immediately. Whereas Tol Braga pushes forward with the words "Fight back, we can resist him!" The Emperor's initial wave was unable to overwhelm all the Jedi, indicating that some of them were too powerful to be overwhelmed by such a powerful display.

Instead the Emperor is forced to more more power into his attack to ultimately overwhelm them.

This is the point, a fully fledged Force Storm is incapable of overwhelming Tol Braga and the HoT and is only after prolonged exposure and the Emperor pouring increasingly potent energy into the attack that he is able to finish them. At the very end unleashing yet another burst of energy to overwhelm them completely. Indicating that even then the Force Storm alone was not enough to render them completely unconscious.

Yet on the other hand a single gout of Darth Sidious' energy is enough to instantly kill a Jedi, critically wound another and render yet another unconscious. No Force Storm is required, no blast of potent energy. One single burst and then are all down. If Sidious had used anything any more powerful they would likely have all died.

Clearly there is an obvious distinction here, clearly it take less power to for Sidious to disable Jedi than the Sith Emperor. Now in regards to how powerful and how capable these Jedi Sidious defeated actually were:

Tutaminis is not relevant here, Leia was not given an opportunity to block the attack with her lightsaber which struck her head on. Given that in order to make an accurate comparison we should look at the effects of the attacks in both circumstance when it struck the Jedi full on rather than being absorbed by their lightsabers.

  • Several Jedi Knights were incapacitated upon the lightning making contact with them, however they remained conscious and a powerful blast of energy was required to completely render them unconscious.

  • Tol Braga upon being struck directly by the Sith Emperor lightning was not incapacitated and managed to push forward. And yes on multiple occasions the lightning did hit him such as here.

  • Tol Braga, the HoT and the remaining Jedi Knights were all rendered completely unconscious when the Sith Emperor unleashed a powerful and concentrated blast of Force Lightning upon them.

Now can it be said that the impact of the lightning would have been less potent on Braga after some bolts hit his lightsaber? Possibly. Yet lets not forget that his staggering indicated that there he was fully overwhelmed. Regardless of that however the third example demonstrates the power necessary to render powerful Force Wielders - struck head on - who I might add were already weakened, completely unconscious. It is a very powerful burst.

Yet all it takes is a single gout for Sidious to disable Leia when struck head on, who was not weakened in any way at at the very least is as powerful if not more powerful than the Jedi Knights present in the strike team if not more so considering her efforts against the Sidious and her being the twin sister of Luke Skywalker.

Again, Sidious requires far far less energy to produce similar results with his lightning.

And we might also note that when subject to a blast of the Sith Emperor's lightining as shown here - the HoT does not have his weapon blasted from his grasp. Yet Master Yoda when subject to a similar blast, perhaps even less powerful considering it was with a single hand, has his weapon thrown from his grip. Yoda being canonically more powerful than the HoT and the HoT not yet being in his prime. Remembering that Yoda is a master of Force Valor, which is the power he would have used to retain hold of his weapon, so do not underestimate him in this respect.

Now in regards to your other points.

3. Dark Empire stated him to be "strong in the Force."

4. I do not underestimate Braga's ability, but Leia's feats are equally as impressive.

5. Leia is an considerably powerful Force wielder as well, more than likely on par with Braga and at the very least on par with the Jedi Knights of the strike team who it took a powerful burst of energy for the Sith Emperor to disable.

6. I have already explained how it is in fact the case.

7. You need to refer to my other post, Force Valor was one of Yoda's greatest powers.

8. Please come up with some actual reasons, if you cannot respond to my points in a logical and coherent way I will only assume that is because you lack sufficient argument to do so. Which is probably the case.

9. No it does not, you have failed to demonstrate how Sidious is superior to the Sith Emperor, debunking my arguments only proves that Sidious is not as powerful, you are going to have to provide an example of the Sith Emperor surpassing Sidious to prove that point. This should not be so difficult for you to understand.

So please, tell me, what exactly has the Sith Emperor done in terms of Force Lightning that surpasses Sidious?

And finally being arrogant and immature only degrades the validity of your argument. Stop.

pieeater's Avatar

12.20.2013 , 03:59 PM | #848
They are the same person. *mind blown*

Aurbere's Avatar

12.20.2013 , 04:01 PM | #849
Quote: Originally Posted by pieeater View Post
They are the same person. *mind blown*
Except they aren't.

I highly doubt LC would let someone make that (very stupid) connection.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar

12.20.2013 , 04:05 PM | #850
Quote: Originally Posted by pieeater View Post
They are the same person. *mind blown*
You won't believe how many people have said that.