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IMO Enrage for Hardmode and Operations is bad mechanic

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
IMO Enrage for Hardmode and Operations is bad mechanic

Munx's Avatar


Munx
01.05.2012 , 03:45 PM | #21
Nope, defo looks to me like he verbaly slapped you around like a little girly.
Dark Knight of the forums.

Tinno's Avatar


Tinno
01.05.2012 , 03:49 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Sykomyke View Post
All the reasons you gave didn't prove it's a good mechanic. It just proved that's current gen MMO's. Just because YOU think it's a good mechanic doesn't make it a good mechanic.

An easier analogy for you to understand would be this. I like tomatoes, you don't. You like cucumbers. That's a difference of opinion. What you are trying to say is that Cucumbers are superior to Tomatoes because they are green, have tasty seeds, and are oblong shaped and somewhat hard to eat. You're saying that Tomatoes are inferior (or if you will compare...in this analogy "normal"), because they are round and easier to eat.

Troll somewhere else please unless you plan on providing sustaining evidence on how a ubiquitous enrage timer is a good mechanic.
Might not be a good mechanic, but unless you come up with something better then it is a necessary mechanic or things would simply be too easy, it forces people to do their best, without it, you might as well just go 2 or 3 healers to do a hardmode, which is clearly not the intended design. So if you can come up with a better idea, send it to Bioware, I'm sure they might even take it into consideration if they see it

So not a good mechanic but at this point it is a necessary mechanic.

Pintaphilly's Avatar


Pintaphilly
01.05.2012 , 03:57 PM | #23
Ok what the hell kind of logic are you guys even using? Enrage timers are NECESSARY, it is the only reason damage classes EXIST. Think about it, with no enrage timers, you could run a group of 1 tank and 3 healers, or 1 tank and 7 healers (yes, this is an exaggeration). Why would you take a dps if having a ton of healers will guarantee a kill, since eventually the boss is going to die. And realistically, having that many healers, no one in your group is going to die.

I've done every hard mode flashpoint, cleared every single one of them. Trust me, every enrage timer is very reasonable. Even for the last boss in boarding party, and bulwark. At first, it seemed very tight, but eventually, we figured out how to deal with some of the mechanics, came up with better strategies, improved our rotations and positioning. And guess what? We haven't hit a single enrage timer ever since, and can clear every single hard mode in less than 45 minutes. Black talon in less than 15, that one is just a joke.

Same thing goes for the operations (so far I've only done normal mode). EV fully cleared along with Bonethrasher. I wouldn't know about hard modes and nightmare modes for them, but afaik, all of them are possible (that aren't bugged).

Enrage timers promote adjustments to your play. If your not beating enrage timers, then clearly your doing something wrong. It could be that your damage dealers are just plain sucking and not pulling their own weight. Maybe the positioning of the boss is terrible, preventing your damage dealers from maximizing their dps. There are a lot of factors that go into it, so a lazy mechanic? HELL NO.

And obviously, in some cases it just means your not geared enough. If you whine about that, then clearly MMOs aren't for you.

In regards to having to bring a class in order to kill a boss, well sorry to say but that is complete bull. We haven't had a problem with this at all, even for melee dps. And that is considering how unfriendly a lot of the fights are for melee. The same goes with healers. If you know how to play your class, and deal with the mechanics, then your golden.

PS. WTB combat log!!!

Fizil's Avatar


Fizil
01.05.2012 , 03:57 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by waryage View Post
Actually this explains how it is a good mechanic just fine you might be blinded by your own thoughts on how the mechanic is a failure. What would you do then to differentiate between different skill levels and gear? Just make up new encounters for each difficultly? I haven't seen much in regards to how it should be improved. The enrage mechanic is for those who are better at the game than others and a way to rank top guilds against others.
Well first off, I don't have a problem with enrage timers, though TOR's are tuned a little tight IMO. However there are various other ways to make DPS skill relevant to a fight. An example: Spawning of adds at timed intervals. Slow DPS will eventually cause the group to be overrun. This is an example of a "soft enrage", in which the mechanics of the fight eventually overwhelm the group if you let the fight drag on too long.

I think what the OP is objecting to, is the hard enrage mechanic, where not killing the boss in X seconds means you wipe. A soft enrage means that lower DPS with better tanking or healing could still work if necessary. Or it can open up more complex strategies, such as a group member kiting all adds while the remainder of the group deals with the main boss.

There are other ways to make DPS even more relevant, such as damage shields on bosses which need to be broken so that a channeled ability from the boss can be interrupted. This gives you a measure of the burst DPS capabilities of your raid. Now you make the ability that needs to be interrupted survivable, but very hard on tank or healer resources, such that the DPS failing once isn't fatal, but continual failure will definitely result in a wipe.

I'm sure I could think of plenty more, hell I am pretty sure I've seen both those mechanics I just described used as soft enrage mechanics in WoW. I'm sure I could delve WoWWiki to find many additional DPS tests which are not simple hard enrages.

Pintaphilly's Avatar


Pintaphilly
01.05.2012 , 04:02 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
Well first off, I don't have a problem with enrage timers, though TOR's are tuned a little tight IMO. However there are various other ways to make DPS skill relevant to a fight. An example: Spawning of adds at timed intervals. Slow DPS will eventually cause the group to be overrun. This is an example of a "soft enrage", in which the mechanics of the fight eventually overwhelm the group if you let the fight drag on too long.

I think what the OP is objecting to, is the hard enrage mechanic, where not killing the boss in X seconds means you wipe. A soft enrage means that lower DPS with better tanking or healing could still work if necessary. Or it can open up more complex strategies, such as a group member kiting all adds while the remainder of the group deals with the main boss.

There are other ways to make DPS even more relevant, such as damage shields on bosses which need to be broken so that a channeled ability from the boss can be interrupted. This gives you a measure of the burst DPS capabilities of your raid. Now you make the ability that needs to be interrupted survivable, but very hard on tank or healer resources, such that the DPS failing once isn't fatal, but continual failure will definitely result in a wipe.

I'm sure I could think of plenty more, hell I am pretty sure I've seen both those mechanics I just described used as soft enrage mechanics in WoW. I'm sure I could delve WoWWiki to find many additional DPS tests which are not simple hard enrages.
I hope you realize that soft enrage mechanics are pretty much the same concept as enrage timers. There just implemented differently. If you don't have enough dps, you won't beat the boss in any of the two cases. And guess what, people will complain about it, BECAUSE THEIR BOTH THE SAME THING.

Not to mention the only reason people complain about enrage timers, is because they can't pull off the dps required to beat the boss for various reasons they deny to admit. PERIOD.

Lightmgl's Avatar


Lightmgl
01.05.2012 , 04:02 PM | #26
As many others have said the enrage timers have a couple of purposes:

1. It ensures you follow comp; 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps. Otherwise you could just bring 1 tank and 3 healers and trivialize everything

2. It ensures that you are not undergeared for the fight. They do not want you going into hard modes in greens, they want you to have geared up first in Corella Commendations for dungeons or Tionese/Columi for Ops.

3. It requires your DPS to play at an appropriate level of skill. The healer certainly is with the damage going around in some of these fights so why should the DPS get to be bad but still kill the boss?

4. It prevents 2 manning or 3 manning (possibly with companions) for obvious reasons.

5. It makes sure you don't try anything convoluted like kiting the boss around the zone while taking potshots at him

I'm sure theres more but those are the quickest to come to mind. The enrage timers enforce the gear level, composition, and play level required to beat the content. Remember DPS is not just an epeen thing, you should be able to put out a certain amount with certain gear otherwise you should not be good enough to win a fight. Not saying that number has to be 100% of potential but it shouldn't be 50% either.

Fizil's Avatar


Fizil
01.05.2012 , 04:10 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Pintaphilly View Post
I hope you realize that soft enrage mechanics are pretty much the same concept as enrage timers. There just implemented differently. If you don't have enough dps, you won't beat the boss in any of the two cases. And guess what, people will complain about it, BECAUSE THEIR BOTH THE SAME THING.

Not to mention the only reason people complain about enrage timers, is because they can't pull off the dps required to beat the boss for various reasons they deny to admit. PERIOD.
Soft enrage mechanics are more flexible, slightly worse DPS can be handled with slightly better tanking and healing. The hard enrage is a crisp line at X seconds, the soft enrage is a blurry line at X+-Y seconds. Furthermore they are less disruptive to your immersion in the game. Why the hell should being in a fight for a certain amount of time suddenly make the enemy a gazzillion times stronger. Why the hell didn't this NPC just throw his full strength at me from the beginning?

Hard enrages are purely artificial constructs, soft enrages flow naturally out of the mechanics of the fight.

Let me give an example: First boss of Eternity Vault. Now I don't know if he actually has an enrage timer, as I've never hit one, but assuming he does, what is an alternative to having a hard enrage? Well the fight progresses through progressively more complex phases. The soft enrage would involve things moving faster and faster and faster. More and more and more missiles targets. Shorter and shorter and shorter times between ability uses. This flows much more smoothly out of the fight than: X seconds have passed, boss turns red and starts insta-gibbing everyone.

Pintaphilly's Avatar


Pintaphilly
01.05.2012 , 04:19 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
Soft enrage mechanics are more flexible, slightly worse DPS can be handled with slightly better tanking and healing, and furthermore they are less disruptive to your immersion in the game. Why the hell should being in a fight for a certain amount of time suddenly make the enemy a gazzillion times stronger. Why the hell didn't this NPC just throw his full strength at me from the beginning?

Hard enrages are purely artificial constructs, soft enrages flow naturally out of the mechanics of the fight.
Since when are MMO's realistic? Why did Malgus fight us in a bridge where we can just push him out of the ledge? Why does the Infernal One have pillars in his room that make him vulnerable when he is hit by them? Why does the pilot boss in The False Emperor flashpoint have turrets in the platform you fight him in that are used to shoot down his ship? Do i really need to keep going?

And soft enrage timers are NOT more flexible than a typical enrage timer. An enrage timer can also be handled with better tanking (positioning of the boss) and healing (positioning of the boss in conjuction to the healers and as well as the position of them relative to the damage dealers). Why? Because it IMPROVES dps as a whole. Your arguments are flawed, and still fail to realize their similarities.

Soft enrage timers are a hidden version of an enrage timer. People will complain about them because they will find out it is the SAME thing as an enrage timer. "WHY ARE YOU MAKING US KILL SHIELD BEFORE INTERRUPTING CAST IF WE CAN'T BURN IT DOWN ON TIME" - A random newbie. Very similar to "WHY DOES HE HAVE AN ENRAGE TIMER IF WE CANT BURN HIM DOWN ON TIME". Both can be solved the same way.

In regards to making a fight "flow". LOL, MMOs are not for you. Realistic does not belong in MMOs.

Lightmgl's Avatar


Lightmgl
01.05.2012 , 04:21 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Pintaphilly View Post
Since when are MMO's realistic? Why did Malgus fight us in a bridge where we can just push out of the ledge? Why does the Infernal One have pillars in his room that make him vulnerable when he is hit by them? Why does the pilot boss in The False Emperor flashpoint have turrets in the platform you fight him in that are used to shoot down his ship? Do i really need to keep going?

And soft enrage timers are NOT more flexible than a typical enrage timer. An enrage timer can also be handled with better tanking (positioning of the boss) and healing (positioning of the boss in conjuction to the healers and as well as the position of them relative to the damage dealers). Why? Because it IMPROVES dps as a whole. Your arguments are flawed, and still fail to realize their similarities.

Soft enrage timers are a hidden version of an enrage timer. People will complain about them because they will find out it is the SAME thing as an enrage timer. "WHY ARE YOU MAKING US KILL SHIELD BEFORE INTERRUPTING CAST IF WE CAN'T BURN IT DOWN ON TIME" - A random newbie. Very similar to "WHY DOES HE HAVE AN ENRAGE TIMER IF WE CANT BURN HIM DOWN ON TIME". Both can be solved the same way.
Aye we have definitely fought some of these bosses well into their enrages. Some are a bit more manageable than others but only a couple wipe you out instantly.

That being said, you really don't get much time beyond the timer though, and with a soft enrage it is even more amusing because some people won't even hit the "intended time" of the enrage just because they can't necessarily handle the ramp up.

Fizil's Avatar


Fizil
01.05.2012 , 05:12 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Pintaphilly View Post
Since when are MMO's realistic? Why did Malgus fight us in a bridge where we can just push him out of the ledge? Why does the Infernal One have pillars in his room that make him vulnerable when he is hit by them? Why does the pilot boss in The False Emperor flashpoint have turrets in the platform you fight him in that are used to shoot down his ship? Do i really need to keep going?

And soft enrage timers are NOT more flexible than a typical enrage timer. An enrage timer can also be handled with better tanking (positioning of the boss) and healing (positioning of the boss in conjuction to the healers and as well as the position of them relative to the damage dealers). Why? Because it IMPROVES dps as a whole. Your arguments are flawed, and still fail to realize their similarities.

Soft enrage timers are a hidden version of an enrage timer. People will complain about them because they will find out it is the SAME thing as an enrage timer. "WHY ARE YOU MAKING US KILL SHIELD BEFORE INTERRUPTING CAST IF WE CAN'T BURN IT DOWN ON TIME" - A random newbie. Very similar to "WHY DOES HE HAVE AN ENRAGE TIMER IF WE CANT BURN HIM DOWN ON TIME". Both can be solved the same way.

In regards to making a fight "flow". LOL, MMOs are not for you. Realistic does not belong in MMOs.
Questing is just grinding mobs. Lightsabers are really no different than vibroblades. Blah Blah Blah. Presentation matters son.

Soft enrages are not exactly the same thing as hard enrages, they just end up with the same result of forcing a GROUP to perform to a certain level, not just the DPS. Of course the tank and healer still have their responsibilities and can hold off the tide of the hard enrage a little, but they can be much more helpful against a soft enrage.

Whatever, like I said when I entered this thread, I don't personally mind hard enrages, I just think dealing with soft enrages can be a lot more fun. To each their own I guess.