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!Big Concern!: Ranged vs. Melee DPS in FPs & Ops

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
!Big Concern!: Ranged vs. Melee DPS in FPs & Ops

Perlexia's Avatar


Perlexia
01.06.2012 , 01:57 PM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by Albytaps View Post
It's the reason I picked a ranged DPS class... ranged classes are better FP/dungeon/Raid/Operations classes... in every game. If you didn't know that then I'm sorry, but there are workarounds. Don't ask for a ranged nerf or a melee buff, that's just annoying. You will have you role in every group, and it will probably be to take down adds and such. As a melee you should have higher defense or dodge chance or whatever it is in this game. If you want even more DPS you will be OP.
Again, Ranged DPS are not better in every game for every encounter. A certain game that has a vast array of tools to measure damage disproves this. Also, it is inevitable that both groups (ranged vs. melee) have advantages on certain encounters, but never it should never be case, that one group is always at the bigger disadvantage, which is the case right now. There simply is no drawback to stacking ranged on ANY encounter right now.

I was hoping this thread would not derail into a buff/nerf argument either, since there are more elegant solutions to solving this dilemma: Better and more balance encounter design. However I believe, granting melee some more mobility wouldn't hurt so much, I believe a buff could be a sensible action to alleviate the problem discussed here.

Mythicrose's Avatar


Mythicrose
01.06.2012 , 02:28 PM | #82
My guild is running EV on hard. We're blocked at the ancient pylons on nightmare as we can't get the last pattern to activate. I'm not seeing that much of a disparity on at least operations bosses between the ranged an melee dps.

1. XRRS (droid boss) : Melee stand behind him and are generally just fine and dandy. Range stay out of the frontal arc knockback. Everyone clumps together right in front of the boss during the missle barrage (yes, even on hard/nightmare). AoE heals go down, Snipers rotate their Barrier. All melee/ranged dps continue going at it. Just before barrage ends, melee scoots this rear, ranged scoots out of knockback attack range. Everyone avoids the targeted missles that appear under their character's feet as appriopriate. Rinse and repeat. Fairly even fight for my guild's ranged and melee dps.

2. Gharj : Melee dps stand behind him and dps at max range. He has a large hitbox. Ranged stand near each island's edge. Melee does get hit with damage but ranged has to deal with being knocked back and traversing the lava. Without combat logs, I'm not sure if the melee dps or all ranged (dps and healers) take more damage. The knockbacks do interfere with cast timers and will remove gunslingers/snipers from cover. Seeing how that is pretty much the whole fight, the melee might have a slight edge on dpsing the boss but they probably do take more overall damage. It's not unheable nor are our healers hurting for energy/force/heat on this fight.

3. Pylons : A bunch of standard mobs and the occasional elite. Ranged has an advantage here only if the melee haven't figured out that the mobs spawn at the same place each time. It can also favor the ranged dps depending on who has to click the consol next. (No debuff on normal, 20 seconds(?) on hard, 40 secodns on nightmare). Melee do get shafted if the guardians are allowed to cast their reflective barriers.

4. Council (can't remember exact name) : Fairly even between ranged and melee. This fight boils down to whom is assigned to kill who. It's a 1 vs 1 for everyone with limited outside help (at least at the beginning).

5. Soa : From my guild's experience, this is a fairly even fight that only favors ranged dps at the end targeting mind traps. Phase 1 is a tank 'n spank that everyone can max dps. Phase 2 isn't much different as we keep melee dps on Soa unless a mind trap is within a short travel time (i.e. 10 m vs 25m+). Ranged focus on the mind traps first, then Soa. Everyone is constantly moving to avoid the lightning orbs. Our tank generally moves Soa if orbs look to be congregating on melee. Phase three isn't too much different. Melee do help range kill mind traps more, but move to the bosses general area just before his immunity shield is broken that way they don't lose any time on dpsing the boss.

Kraggas Palace : I do see an imbalance here in favor of ranged. If the melee are clumped, they can't tell who the rancor is going to swipe as easily as a ranged class will when the rancor focus on said range dpser. The adds seem to "show up" on the screen before they really do so everyone is more than capable of getting in range of them. The earthquake attacks mess everyone up bad on hard.

TDLR : But these are only observations made from my guild running normal, hard, and nightmare flash points. Positioning and strategy play a difference in perceived advantages and disadvantages of melee dps and ranged dps as illustrated above.

Perlexia's Avatar


Perlexia
01.06.2012 , 02:41 PM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by Mythicrose View Post
My guild is running EV on hard. We're blocked at the ancient pylons on nightmare as we can't get the last pattern to activate. I'm not seeing that much of a disparity on at least operations bosses between the ranged an melee dps.

1. XRRS (droid boss) : Melee stand behind him and are generally just fine and dandy. Range stay out of the frontal arc knockback. Everyone clumps together right in front of the boss during the missle barrage (yes, even on hard/nightmare). AoE heals go down, Snipers rotate their Barrier. All melee/ranged dps continue going at it. Just before barrage ends, melee scoots this rear, ranged scoots out of knockback attack range. Everyone avoids the targeted missles that appear under their character's feet as appriopriate. Rinse and repeat. Fairly even fight for my guild's ranged and melee dps.

2. Gharj : Melee dps stand behind him and dps at max range. He has a large hitbox. Ranged stand near each island's edge. Melee does get hit with damage but ranged has to deal with being knocked back and traversing the lava. Without combat logs, I'm not sure if the melee dps or all ranged (dps and healers) take more damage. The knockbacks do interfere with cast timers and will remove gunslingers/snipers from cover. Seeing how that is pretty much the whole fight, the melee might have a slight edge on dpsing the boss but they probably do take more overall damage. It's not unheable nor are our healers hurting for energy/force/heat on this fight.

3. Pylons : A bunch of standard mobs and the occasional elite. Ranged has an advantage here only if the melee haven't figured out that the mobs spawn at the same place each time. It can also favor the ranged dps depending on who has to click the consol next. (No debuff on normal, 20 seconds(?) on hard, 40 secodns on nightmare). Melee do get shafted if the guardians are allowed to cast their reflective barriers.

4. Council (can't remember exact name) : Fairly even between ranged and melee. This fight boils down to whom is assigned to kill who. It's a 1 vs 1 for everyone with limited outside help (at least at the beginning).

5. Soa : From my guild's experience, this is a fairly even fight that only favors ranged dps at the end targeting mind traps. Phase 1 is a tank 'n spank that everyone can max dps. Phase 2 isn't much different as we keep melee dps on Soa unless a mind trap is within a short travel time (i.e. 10 m vs 25m+). Ranged focus on the mind traps first, then Soa. Everyone is constantly moving to avoid the lightning orbs. Our tank generally moves Soa if orbs look to be congregating on melee. Phase three isn't too much different. Melee do help range kill mind traps more, but move to the bosses general area just before his immunity shield is broken that way they don't lose any time on dpsing the boss.

Kraggas Palace : I do see an imbalance here in favor of ranged. If the melee are clumped, they can't tell who the rancor is going to swipe as easily as a ranged class will when the rancor focus on said range dpser. The adds seem to "show up" on the screen before they really do so everyone is more than capable of getting in range of them. The earthquake attacks mess everyone up bad on hard.

TDLR : But these are only observations made from my guild running normal, hard, and nightmare flash points. Positioning and strategy play a difference in perceived advantages and disadvantages of melee dps and ranged dps as illustrated above.
Missing the point. Yes, strats do help, but there is still a disparity. SOA is a ***** with a melee heavy setup, there is no way arguing against that. Also, you are telling me you let your melee get pounced by gharj on nightmare? you must have the best healers in the game.

Mythicrose's Avatar


Mythicrose
01.06.2012 , 02:58 PM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by Perlexia View Post
Missing the point. Yes, strats do help, but there is still a disparity. SOA is a ***** with a melee heavy setup, there is no way arguing against that. Also, you are telling me you let your melee get pounced by gharj on nightmare? you must have the best healers in the game.
The mix of a raid's dps falls to the raid leader, not Bioware. Yes, Gharj's pounce does some nasty damage. Don't underestimate the power of Sith Sorc AoE heals with a sprinkling of Operative heals. It doesn't hurt that our melee isn't afraid to use thier own medpacks on cooldown or actually stand back a moment or two to avoid a pounce or use a defensive cooldown to help mitigate the damage.


Considering Soa can be moved (and must in phase 3), there's no reason your tank cannot keep him moving like ours does. He's only vulnerable for what? 20 seconds at a time in phase 3? Keep your melee spread out a bit to be nearer the mind traps then haul *** toward him just before your tank positions him to break that shield. Situational awareness of the lightning balls is just as critical to the ranged as it the melee. Thankfully they have a relatively small blast area so your people can move and still be within Soa's hitbox. I don't have a melee character above level 20 yet, but aren't the majority of their abilities instant (or near instant) save something like Force Choke.

Perlexia's Avatar


Perlexia
01.06.2012 , 03:34 PM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by Mythicrose View Post
The mix of a raid's dps falls to the raid leader, not Bioware. Yes, Gharj's pounce does some nasty damage. Don't underestimate the power of Sith Sorc AoE heals with a sprinkling of Operative heals. It doesn't hurt that our melee isn't afraid to use thier own medpacks on cooldown or actually stand back a moment or two to avoid a pounce or use a defensive cooldown to help mitigate the damage.


Considering Soa can be moved (and must in phase 3), there's no reason your tank cannot keep him moving like ours does. He's only vulnerable for what? 20 seconds at a time in phase 3? Keep your melee spread out a bit to be nearer the mind traps then haul *** toward him just before your tank positions him to break that shield. Situational awareness of the lightning balls is just as critical to the ranged as it the melee. Thankfully they have a relatively small blast area so your people can move and still be within Soa's hitbox. I don't have a melee character above level 20 yet, but aren't the majority of their abilities instant (or near instant) save something like Force Choke.
Yes, the raid leaders get the classes they think are most beneficial to the raid. Especially if there is alot of wiping. Bioware sets the premises, and those are imbalanced atm.

You had me at "dont underestimate the power of sorc AOE healing". Gotta say, thats a good one. No way you can heal through Gharjs nightmare pounces with that. The knockback into the lava is just annoying, damage-wise it is pretty neglectable.

Didn't make the thread to discuss strategy though, I am aware that the encounters are not impossible with a melee heavy group, just alot harder. Which i dont think is right. Taht is my point

Your thought on SOA is completely flawed btw. Maybe you should play a melee character in that fight to understand what i mean.

hiddenpuudji's Avatar


hiddenpuudji
01.06.2012 , 04:02 PM | #86
Here's an idea.

If you gave the dps a buff that would activate in boss battles if they are within 10 meters of the boss for X amount of time (maybe 6 s) providing them a dps boost as long as they stay there, maybe 1% added damage that could stack with another 6 s.

The added boost would go away and start the timer over if they have to move out of range. That would give them a nice boost in damage for being right next to boss and help them overcome the loss when they have to move.

No need to add abilites or gap closers, just a hand out for having to run around so damn much.

Just thought I would throw this out there.
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Puudji - Sorc - Nadd's Sarcophagus

Magdain's Avatar


Magdain
01.06.2012 , 04:14 PM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by Perlexia View Post
You had me at "dont underestimate the power of sorc AOE healing". Gotta say, thats a good one. No way you can heal through Gharjs nightmare pounces with that. The knockback into the lava is just annoying, damage-wise it is pretty neglectable.
Haha seriously? You do know that Revivification is horrendously imbalanced right? Shield melee before every pounce and reviv will comfortably heal up melee.

Don't get me wrong: I'd still replace those melee DPS with ranged to make the fight easier.
>>Magdain - Sawbones<<
Magz - Seer
Magdainz - Combat Medic
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deserttfoxx's Avatar


deserttfoxx
01.06.2012 , 04:15 PM | #88
While i agree melee gets screwed over 99% of the time in hard modes and raids, i can tell you that you are doing krel thak wrong. Just my 2 creds on this subject.
"Soon they will know my name, recognize my face, and understand what it means to be in the presence of true power." - Imitatio Dei Captain Sakari Foxx , Sith Juggernaut (Level 50)

Mythicrose's Avatar


Mythicrose
01.06.2012 , 04:53 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by Perlexia View Post
Yes, the raid leaders get the classes they think are most beneficial to the raid. Especially if there is alot of wiping. Bioware sets the premises, and those are imbalanced atm.

You had me at "dont underestimate the power of sorc AOE healing". Gotta say, thats a good one. No way you can heal through Gharjs nightmare pounces with that. The knockback into the lava is just annoying, damage-wise it is pretty neglectable.

Didn't make the thread to discuss strategy though, I am aware that the encounters are not impossible with a melee heavy group, just alot harder. Which i dont think is right. Taht is my point

Your thought on SOA is completely flawed btw. Maybe you should play a melee character in that fight to understand what i mean.

You have a right to your opinions about how horrendous melee have it. I've shared my opinion based solely on my guild's experiences. Some of us have been raiding since EQ 1 days, but many were new the genre from WoW. Melee do have it slighty worse than ranged, but no more or less than past MMOs I've played.

Perlexia's Avatar


Perlexia
01.06.2012 , 05:22 PM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by Magdain View Post
Haha seriously? You do know that Revivification is horrendously imbalanced right? Shield melee before every pounce and reviv will comfortably heal up melee.

Don't get me wrong: I'd still replace those melee DPS with ranged to make the fight easier.
I don't play a sorc, but it didn't strike me as "horrendously imbalanced" before. It doesn't matter anyway, since this is only really a sideshow to the argument made.