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!Big Concern!: Ranged vs. Melee DPS in FPs & Ops

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
!Big Concern!: Ranged vs. Melee DPS in FPs & Ops

gingtastic's Avatar


gingtastic
01.06.2012 , 06:55 AM | #71
All of this can be sorted by changing the way the encouters work not the classes. If the aeo is happening around the melee dps, change it and make it more random, targeting groups of ranged etc. Cleverer design of the encouters may well come in time?

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Teslamatic
01.06.2012 , 07:03 AM | #72
This really seems to be a concern for the boss design, I do not get all the people saying "every MMO has the same problem, l2p, reroll, etc.". If designers considered this during boss creation, there should be little need for class tweaking whatsoever. This can no doubt still be implemented, if enough people ask for it.
In order to make encounters tougher for ranged DPS:

all it takes is implementing abilities that target people who stay out of boss melee range, such as damaging roots for stationary people, long-range only boss attacks, stacking dots for people who stay at a long range too long, huge AoE that would hit outside of boss melee range, cast-slowing debuffs that would require the ranged periodocally to run to a point to lose them... there must be countless possible mechanics to choose from. It should be noted that healers may be hit as well, and most of the aforementioned abilities do require careful thinking in order not to make healing a nightmare.

Either all will have to hug the boss and run as the melees do, or the ranged will have to learn to deal with hindering mechanics similar to the melee. It is really a matter of boss design, nothing else.

Alternatively, if we cannot have bosses that are balanced regarding melee/ranged difficulty, we could at least have an equal share of bosses favouring one or the other DPS approach. I do play ranged btw, but this seems like a perfectly legimate request.

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CHRISGG
01.06.2012 , 07:30 AM | #73
SW:TOR's endgame is a mess of horrible design, bugs, etc. Don't expect much.
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Vid-szhite
01.06.2012 , 09:40 AM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by FourTwent View Post
I think you say this, just because it's the nice thing to say about a raid or a game. I've seen this issue in another MMO(and im sure it happens in dozens). Make casters too weak and they feel like buff bots. . .make them too strong and you have all caster raids/epics.
Yep. Both these extremes happened in FFXI. At the outset, Ranged DPS was MILES above melee DPS, supposedly because they used resources for their abilities while melee did not. Rangers paid money for ammo, so they were god tier, while BLMs used mana with no inherent regeneration (you had to take a knee to recover MP, which took ages). Most raid groups used mainly them for their primary DPS, while melees stood around building TP so that the mages could further increase their damage by bursting off their skillchains--two weapon skills (limit breaks) used back to back to create warps in reality that vastly increased the damage of any same-typed spell timed to go off when the chain animation finished.

Parties made entirely of black mages were fast and easy because black mages had the sole monopoly on AoE damage, so they could drop dozens of EXP mobs at once. Eventually, that got nerfed so that more mobs = less damage, and mobs getting hit with spells in rapid succession would give that monster rapidly increasing magic resistance.

Given the fact that leveling in FFXI involved forming groups to set out to a random location to endlessly bash away at whatever overleveled mobs you could find, finding the best mob to get exp chains off of was left to min/maxers and theorycrafters, and the masses would follow that one formula to the end of time. In that regard, SE made a combination of errors with their third expansion that totally ruined BLMs completely. First, they created a continent where, with a very cheap NPC-acquired buff active, EXP gain was astronomical. So far so good. They placed, on this new continent, a very easily-killed but annoying type of monster that stole food effects, erased melees' TP at random (promoting weaponskill spam, preventing coordinated skillchains), and learned any spell you threw at it while having insane resistances against all magic. (This sounds intimidating--it was a freaking normal-sized Toucan).

Black mages were literally less than useless against these mobs. The chances of being fully resisted was very high, the most damage you could ever do with a 7-second cast time spell was no more than a SINGLE melee autoattack, and even then, that monster now knew your spell and would cast it at the tank, who would probably get one-shotted by it.

These annoying mobs were found to be the fastest way to level by far for everyone else, sadly, so melee DPS, tanks, healers, buffbots, and Rangers would rocket to max level, while BLMs died out altogether. The only way Black Mages could level was with full groups of other black mages in the middle of freaking nowhere, and with their abilities nerfed to hell, it was subpar and difficult to coordinate. One mistake and the entire group died, with no rez in sight for miles, and with a 10% max EXP loss and potential to level down on defeat. This lasted the entire final third of the leveling game, which required more experience points than all the previous levels combined. Oh, and experience gain never went up in FFXI, while experience TNL rose sharply after level 60. If you killed a monster that conned +3 or more, it gave you 200 experience points, didn't matter if you were level 1 or level 74. It was horrible.

The worst part of it was, BLMs were still useful endgame. They just had no way to get there because you were at the mercy of parties to do ANYTHING in FFXI, even leveling. Soloing didn't exist.

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Feshnak
01.06.2012 , 10:22 AM | #75
After doing Eternity Vault as infiltration shadow I have noticed what OP and several others have mentioned. My only gap closer is force speed on 30 sec cd which is what all consulars have (sages have it also and are ranged dps). With the reduced aoe damage take and the resilience which lets you resist various attacks the spec seemed to be ok at first, it's really hard to tell with no dps meter to show how everything compares.

Then, Soa, the Infernal One *sigh*. On this boss it becomes very clear how much melee dps gets gimped. I actually switched from infiltration to balance because you get couple instant cast spells with 30m range to cast while running. You still cant do good dps from outside melee range but it's a bit more flexible. I generally love playing melee and would play infiltration but currently it simply doesnt seem to work.

mikeycon's Avatar


mikeycon
01.06.2012 , 11:08 AM | #76
So since I assume you have not played a ranged class in this game yet or even most likely cleared most of the hard mode flash points and ops I will say this.

When bosses such as the first boss in EV and HK in False emperor use targeted abilities on the ground do you have to run around being able to do almost 0 damage? I would hope the answer to that is no, because if you have any skill you would just run around the boss still attacking while ranged who generally have to stand and cast can't.

Until you have played every roll in every situation you have no idea what other people are going through. Coming to the forums to complain that you don't feel like you are top dps doesn't seem very helpful for the state the game is currently in.

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talanas
01.06.2012 , 11:17 AM | #77
All these debates and etc are valuable feedback imo and will(should) be read and followed by dev team somehow.

So many useless posts here. You guys cant understand what we mean as a lvl 30 melee class. Get to 50, get to do some heroics and then you'ill see.


Anyways; Agreed. Melee has huge disadvantage at end game.

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Perlexia
01.06.2012 , 11:34 AM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by mikeycon View Post
So since I assume you have not played a ranged class in this game yet or even most likely cleared most of the hard mode flash points and ops I will say this.

When bosses such as the first boss in EV and HK in False emperor use targeted abilities on the ground do you have to run around being able to do almost 0 damage? I would hope the answer to that is no, because if you have any skill you would just run around the boss still attacking while ranged who generally have to stand and cast can't.

Until you have played every roll in every situation you have no idea what other people are going through. Coming to the forums to complain that you don't feel like you are top dps doesn't seem very helpful for the state the game is currently in.
You are completely besides the point. This thread is not about being "top dps".

It is about a serious imbalance in some encounters, not all of course, where stacking ranged DPS makes one encounter trivial, while you might fail repeatedly on it with melee DPS without some more eloborate strategy and a considerable effort. That is the issue. This is an incentive to invite ranged DPS over melee. And this is happening already, I can tell you as someone who likes to lead raids.

Your examples are also weak. Those 2 mechanics are hardly just affecting ranged, and in any case, they are very manageable for a raid. But since you brought it up, for the first boss in EV: Ever thought about the fact that Ranged can just camp at the turrets, while melee have to run all the way to hide from the missile salvo and back again? Even worse, for hard mode/nightmare, you might want Ranged DPS just burning him still when he is doing the salvo, and have the healers heal through it. Guess what...melee can't do **** at the time, while ranged make it alot easier to beat the enrage timer.

Instead consider the encounters I mentioned in my 1st post, it is a completely different story: Try doing Final Boss Boarding Party HM with 2 Melee DPS in blue gear: A total nightmare. Then do it again with 2 equally geared ranged DPS. I dont even wanna talk about SOA hardmode/or nightmare again, because its just so blatantly obvious there

Magdain's Avatar


Magdain
01.06.2012 , 12:41 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by mikeycon View Post
So since I assume you have not played a ranged class in this game yet or even most likely cleared most of the hard mode flash points and ops I will say this.

When bosses such as the first boss in EV and HK in False emperor use targeted abilities on the ground do you have to run around being able to do almost 0 damage? I would hope the answer to that is no, because if you have any skill you would just run around the boss still attacking while ranged who generally have to stand and cast can't.

Until you have played every roll in every situation you have no idea what other people are going through. Coming to the forums to complain that you don't feel like you are top dps doesn't seem very helpful for the state the game is currently in.
You haven't thought this argument out at all. Every ranged DPS class has abilities they can use while moving. They're likely less DPS or less resource efficient, but they're not a complete DPS halt. Compare that to abilities that make melee move completely out of range where they can't do anything at all.

It's also a terrible example, because on that very same example, the mob stuns people in melee range then knocks them back 60 meters. How much damage are melee doing while running 60 meters vs. the ranged DPS who stood still for that entire time?


I've played with a very skilled marauder (the same player) through every flashpoint (including hard), and EV (including hard). In every case, our group would be stronger if that player were playing an equally geared ranged DPS. He would do more damage and I would need to do less healing.
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Albytaps
01.06.2012 , 12:49 PM | #80
It's the reason I picked a ranged DPS class... ranged classes are better FP/dungeon/Raid/Operations classes... in every game. If you didn't know that then I'm sorry, but there are workarounds. Don't ask for a ranged nerf or a melee buff, that's just annoying. You will have you role in every group, and it will probably be to take down adds and such. As a melee you should have higher defense or dodge chance or whatever it is in this game. If you want even more DPS you will be OP.
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