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Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

Xcore's Avatar


Xcore
12.25.2011 , 08:42 PM | #1
Hello,

Updated: 01-02-12' (This is Continuing Thread 5)

Original Thread: Thread 1 -- http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=84943
Thread 2 -- http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=95738
Thread 3 -- http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=105955
Thread 4 -- http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=119676

**BIOWARE RESPONSES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE POST**


Before you label me a Troll please read my Early Review here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=76222

My Reflection of the entire Thread: 3000+ Replies (Read every single one), 120,000+ Views... http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...=95738&page=82


Other forums discussing this issue:

(MMO-Champion) http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...r-break-SW-TOR
Incredible Post on Rift Forums: http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...back-long.html

ArenaNet's (Guild Wars 2) Combat Timing and Fine Tuning:http://www.arena.net/blog/guild-wars...date#more-6955


Video Examples of the Discussed Subject

Thank You - Baznasty (Thread 1, Page 87) -- WoW Example/Contrast: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj6LD6H0ys8
Thank You - Sanchpanza (Thread 1, Page 123) -- TOR Example www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzP0xjNLyX4
Thank You - Samdbtto (Thread 1, Page 124) -- TOR Target Switch Responsiveness http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXlX5...1Xqqj_g-bLhNjO
Thank You - Badchx (Thread 1, Page 181) -- TOR Healing Issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7NIn...ature=youtu.be
Thank You - Devolution (Thread 1, Page 210) -- TOR Melee Ability Delay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwPT5...ature=youtu.be
Thank You - Hulduet (Thread 2, Page 89) -- TOR Ability Activation Timer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1T0OisXdew
Thank You - Badchx (Thread 2, Page 148) -- WoW/TOR Cast-Moving Responsiveness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUQ1J...ature=youtu.be
Thank You - jtype_sw (Thread 3, Page 24) -- Kolto Injection Healing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fc79BNC-zI
Thank You - Owarida (Thread 3, Page 27) -- Imperial Agent, Delay + Snipe Cancel etc.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTX3VYtZGhE
Thank You - jtype_sw (Thread 3, Page 83) -- Ability Trigger Fail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbFgy...G_uWyCstMK7nMz
Thank You - Nikita_Kilemal (Thread 4, Page 79) -- Bounty Hunter Delay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPQSv...nTZX-jzIDR07ra
Thank You - Mdrunx (Thread 5, Page 80) -- Sith Warrior Ability Fail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5zWQ...lV422YQQ7epfVm

Thank You - Allocator (Thread 4, Page 36) Diagram of Ability Delay Problem: http://i.imgur.com/oGeam.png


Note: Please, if you agree with these points and this subject, rate the thread. Perhaps this will raise Bioware's awareness. Anything we can do to make SW:TOR the best it can be because the truth is you and I are here because we want it to succeed and we see it's potential.

The game has been out long enough for the masses to finally realize the negatives. As people are getting out of the starting planets and the "new and shiny" feeling starts to subside, the cracks in this new wonderous world are becoming apparent.

Ability Delay and Character Responsiveness: -- It is not Latency or FPS Lag

I will attempt to discuss this issue and I will do so in a manner that I hope will make everyone understand it better. The "Character Responsiveness" for lack of a better term, is how "smooth" the game plays from your avatars perspective. I have played SWG and EQ to a lesser degree as well as Warhammer Online and several other MMOs and I must honestly say that Bioware has gotten this all too important aspect much better than any previous MMO that I have experienced (with the obvious exception, to which we will get soon).

You see, I really want you (The Reader) to understand the importance of this topic. To drive home "how" important this is. In fact I will say this: I am in no way shy to say that, the reason Warhammer Online, EQs, Rift, SWG etc. etc. could never "ever" get to anything near WoW subscriptions is the Character Responsiveness. All these games failed for many reasons, and a game "can" fail for many reasons and on many fronts but this single-one-category... is by "far" the #1 Reason why World of Warcraft is World of Warcraft.

Again, I must drive home the fact that no matter if you understand this issue or are new to the subject (and perhaps MMOs) or if you believe the game is fun and enjoyable and think that this is just a vocal minority piping up on something nonsensical. This is the undeniable truth and any game developer or serious gamer worth their salt will agree.


What is Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay? -- It is not Latency or FPS lag

It is the feeling of connection between the person behind the keyboard and the Avatar that is being controlled. Basically, the better the Character Responsiveness is, the smoother the Game Plays! You may HATE World of Warcraft and believe it is the worst abomination on the planet... that is fine. HOWEVER, you "must" objectively admit that it is the absolute, smoothest Character Responsiveness in a Western Available MMO ever.

If you are a WoW player, and have played WoW with any amount of skill, competitiveness, you cannot help but cringe when in a Warzone in SW:TOR. It feels unresponsive, frustrating... as if something is wrong with you! but there is nothing you can do about it!

If you have never played WoW, perhaps you come from SWG or EQ2 or Rift etc. that is fine! You are WELCOME in this thread, it is not WoW Players against the Rest! I just "need" you to understand that SW:TOR is "noticeably" and "objectively" bad in this crucial department. I am not writing this because I am trolling or because I love WoW, on the contrary. I am doing this because I want SW:TOR to be amazing, I love so many aspects of this great game... but if this is not addressed it "will" die like every other one.


Why is this "so" important?! -- It is not Latency or FPS lag

From here on I will say 0.5 for emphasis but reality is 0.2, 0.3 (ANY) Ability Delay is unacceptable.

And here is the real problem. It is so important because MMO gaming has become so "tight", so competitive and so smooth (through WoW), that it is completely and absolutely unacceptable for an ability or animation to be delayed by 0.5 seconds.

0.5 seconds is a lot of time, to our visual cortex. 0.5 seconds is the difference between interrupting a CC of the enemy player or not (and thus being disadvantaged/dying). 0.5 seconds is the difference between landing a Taunt on the "add" that just came into the room and thus having it come to you or it one-shotting your healer and thus wiping on the Boss you've just spent 3 Days wiping to.

Zero Point Five Seconds is a ******* Long Time


Bioware, I plead that you dedicate as many resources as required (all if needed) to address this. You cannot cram story/companions/new flashpoints - operations... Class Balance into patches and hope that is good enough.

I hate to be a crazed doomsayer but I must state: Mark my words, if SW:TOR's Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay is not on par with WoW's by March-June it will be just another Rift.

Bioware, please see the importance of Character Responsiveness and Visual Stimulation of Ability Animation Correctness. It should be impossible for me to have an ability's cooldown activated without seeing it animate.... this is unacceptable. I just truly hope that this isn't a core coding issue or engine issue, because then we're f'd.


Notable Mention:

Thread 1 -- Page 133 -- Poster: ajjw

"In a game like WoW, if your previous spell's animation is still playing when you use your next spell, the old animation immediately ends and that of the new spell beings. However in TOR, if an animation is still playing, the game will not let you cast another spell, even if the cast time and GCD have already finished.

In other words, if a spell has a 2s cast time but a 2.5s animation, you'll be sat there looking stupid for 0.5s unable to cast anything after the first spell, whereas in WoW the last 0.5s of the old animation will be "clipped" (ie cut off) and you'll be able to cast a new spell immediately, the animation of which will also begin to play immediately."



Thread 2 -- Page 109 -- Poster: Reedful (Professional Gaming Experience)

His Proven Credentials: http://www.arenajunkies.com/user/174129-threatslol/

WC3 Tournament Player
WoW Tournament Player
CS:S Tournament Player

Attended regionals and most MLG events from 2008-2010

Xcore: On a personal note, I value input like this a lot as this is someone with a very high understand of the intricacies of "Competitive Combat Design". I realize that the view may be a little "Hardcore" but nonetheless it is invaluable and coming from an individual that is perceiving the "Gameworld" at a higher level.

"Speaking from a professional gamer's standpoint, the game is simply unplayable. It is barely possible to outplay your opponents with a 2 second median reaction time. Olympic is .4, I'd settle for .8. It is hilarious how they were bragging about taking subscriptions away from World of Warcraft when anything in this game after the single player parts might as well have been made in 2003... by Blizzard, and then discarded so their game would actually be successful.

I can interrupt my own instant casts. There's at least a 1 second delay on every single one of my abilities(even instants not on the global) with a professional gaming computer and 3 MS. I live right down the road. You should hire me, throw away the Hero Engine and maybe we can fix your issues.

--

Say I'm CC'd by the door in Voidstar and I want to trinket to interrupt the cap - here we have a perfect example of how you've ripped off World of Warcraft almost to the letter with everything from the battleground style in this, "Warzone," to "Tenacity" AND it's cooldown, et al, holy moly.

So anyway, here I am playing a WoW clone, stunned by the door. I trinket(I am not going to call it Tenacity because it is a blatant rip off of World of Warcraft and it hasn't established a real name for itself.) Nothing happens. Nothing happens for almost an entire global. I am spamming Concussion Charge. At this point I have only casted Tenacity, which does not use my global and I have waited for 1.5 seconds. Finally, the game registers that I have casted my PvP trinket, takes the cooldown 2 seconds late, frees me from my CC and allows my Concussion Charge spam to activate the ability except I get knocked back, the UI tells me my instant cast ability was interrupted and my Resolve bar has already decayed to 75%.

There is no saying, "hehehe don't spam your abilities." There is no saying, "well I still like the game anyway!" There is no saying, "well if everyone has the same lag, it's balanced!""



Thread 3 -- Page 13 -- Poster: Asabalana (Casual Gamer)

"I am an average player who will never be on the list of greats and I see the issue very clearly. Yesterday I ran Esseles on a Trooper alt. It was painful. Spells misfired, spells cast after the gcd was over and ability bar was lit had delays before they activated. At points trying to cast while straffing was an adventure. As bad as the problem is in solo play, you can work around it, but in group play it is really bad. You feel that you are letting the group down because you can't function and play your part.

Yes I have played WOW and the only thing that I liked about the game was the combat system. But I am a noob at heart. This is an issue that affects everyone. The only difference between the top tier well experienced players and noobs newbies and newcomers is that the top guys/gals can understand and verbalize why game play does not feel good. The rest just know that it does not feel good although they can't put their finger on why.

I can't speak to whether this will make or break swtor, but believe that it will cost the game a great many subs and result in a great deal of lost revenue for EA/BW. It will cost the loss of most of the top tier players who although small in number contribute a lot to the game and community.

The game still has a lot of bugs. LOL, yesterday a level 17 player asked for help with a boss in general. I responded with my 26 JC Shadow. We fought the boss and he was killed quickly but I got the boss to 0 health and the thing still kept fighting. That went on for ten minutes and the boss just kept on with 0 health and would not drop. I told the person that I was trying to help that the instance was bugged and that he should just move on. No big deal (one bugged quest out of thousands that will be fixed eventually). But the combat system problems are a prime big deal. They need to be given top priority with communication to the community and be fixed post haste. Otherwise people will start leaving the game. It will be a real shame because most of the people who end up leaving really like the game and want to play, but find it not playable because of the combat issue.

To the OP, I think that BW owes you big time. You have identified and described a problem and forced their attention to it. BW is much better off facing this right now than rather seeing subs drop and somewhere down the line when it is way to late identifying why."



Bioware Responses


Thread 2 -- Page 123 -- Georg Zoeller

"This issue is under active investigation.

The complication is that there are actually a number of different issues with very different causes and potential resolutions lumped together in this thread.

All we can say for now is 'we are actively working on the topic of character responsiveness'."

Georg "Observer" Zoeller
Principal Lead Combat Designer



Sticky Post -- Emmanuel Lusinchi

During the development of Star Wars: The Old Republic, weve been paying a lot of attention to the games responsiveness. As pointed out by some people on the Forum, a very responsive experience is one of the factors that separate the best MMOs from the others. This is something we are fully aware of and take extremely seriously.

Several of the issues brought forth by the community have already been dealt with and you should see the fixes integrated in coming patches, including those coming this month. Every lead mentioned on the forum is being investigated and I cannot stress enough how useful your feedback is especially when coupled with the level of details found in some of the posts.

So Id really like to thank the community for this very constructive feedback.

Thanks again and best regards,

Emmanuel Lusinchi
Technical Design Director
Star Wars: The Old Republic






P.S.: It is not Latency or FPS Lag... also very important to understand.

Artthen's Avatar


Artthen
01.05.2012 , 02:29 AM | #2
Because the previous version of this thread has exceeded our normal threshold for thread length, we've started this new thread for the community to continue discussion of this topic.

Developer response in the previous thread:
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
This issue is under active investigation.

The complication is that there are actually a number of different issues with very different causes and potential resolutions lumped together in this thread.

All we can say for now is 'we are actively working on the topic of character responsiveness'.
As always, we ask that the community keep the following in mind when responding:
  1. No insults, name calling, or personal attacks.
  2. Please stay on topic.
  3. Please express your opinion and thoughts in a constructive, respectful manner.
  4. If someone violates the Rules of Conduct, please flag it instead of replying to it.
  5. Keep in mind that everyone has different viewpoints. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're trolling. If you believe someone is trolling, please use the Flag function to report their post.
Thank you!

Zeetofox's Avatar


Zeetofox
01.05.2012 , 02:33 AM | #3
There, they are working on it now stop complaining and deal with it until then.

belialle's Avatar


belialle
01.05.2012 , 02:33 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Tiron_Raptor
Finally, since there's been so many posts, I present:
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6273/debunkify.jpg
This image is very interesting. Thank you for posting it!

Snapdizzle's Avatar


Snapdizzle
01.05.2012 , 02:37 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Zeetofox View Post
There, they are working on it now stop complaining and deal with it until then.
Zeetofox, what you are saying is b/c we all have the same problem it makes warzones ok. That is not the case.

Yes I know they are working on it, yes I know everyone is complaining, yes I know you don't want anyone to complain, yes I know you are upset with the amount of posts people are complaining in, but the fact remains, to me and many others this game does not feel fluid. And if it makes me feel better about posting once or twice about the problem that I am encountering, wether it has been said or not, because I am a paying customer, I damn well skippy am entitled to it.

Tiron_Raptor's Avatar


Tiron_Raptor
01.05.2012 , 02:38 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by belialle View Post
This image is very interesting. Thank you for posting it!
I thought it best to illustrate what I'm seeing when I see these videos: I see the animation being delayed, but I also see the signs (or lack thereof) that the abilities have actually been activated, and the server has responded properly.

That kolto injection video, for example. Even after it bugs, the castbar goes off, the GCD goes off. The animations go off, in a disjointed sort of way.

But the resources never get pulled. No healing is done. Both indications that the cast for some reason was not accepted by the server.

Perhaps it never got to the server, because something in the client malfunctioned and stopped relaying the casts. Perhaps the server is simply failing to process it for some unknown reason.

Regardless, the client is still simulating the ability going off, but the ability isn't actually going off.

But delays? Other than the animations falling behind and going to heck as a result, there's no delays.
One day my body will be able to take my brain out in public without it embarrassing us.

Baelvar's Avatar


Baelvar
01.05.2012 , 02:39 AM | #7
Definitely a serious issue that needs attention, hopefully the Devs can resolve it.

Zeetofox's Avatar


Zeetofox
01.05.2012 , 02:40 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Snapdizzle View Post
Zeetofox, what you are saying is b/c we all have the same problem it makes warzones ok. That is not the case.

Yes I know they are working on it, yes I know everyone is complaining, yes I know you don't want anyone to complain, yes I know you are upset with the amount of posts people are complaining in, but the fact remains, to me and many others this game does not feel fluid. And if it makes me feel better about posting once or twice about the problem that I am encountering, wether it has been said or not, because I am a paying customer, I damn well skippy am entitled to it.
That's fine, its the fact that everyone is just making it so dramatic literally saying its unplayable, when in reality it isn't its very annoying yes, but you can in fact get somewhat used to it and PvP fine until it's fixed.

blargness's Avatar


blargness
01.05.2012 , 02:43 AM | #9
Quote:
I'm a PvP'er that came straight from WoW, yes it's annoying yes you can get used to it until they fix it. Saying that warzones are unplayable is just exaggerating. Once again i have the problem too no need to explain it to me i'm simply saying it's not just you EVERYONE has this problem.

People are acting like it puts them at a huge disadvantage they said they're working on it, so until then deal with it the game is perfectly playable. It's almost as if you want them to post on every 5 pages saying 'Hello we're actively working on this thank you for your patience.'.
I never said it was unplayable at all?

I also don't think it puts me at any huge disadvantage at all; mostly because I know its probably happening to the players I'm fighting in warzones also.

I'm mostly just posting in a discussion thread about a game and a very hot topic. I think keeping this on the front page is pretty helpful. I don't share Xcore's pessimism that Bioware will do nothing.

edit: my main point wasn't that the game was unplayable or that the sky was falling. Only that its not something I could probably ever get used to since I still play a lot of other games. I'm also not certain I'd want to get used to it.

MichaelKage's Avatar


MichaelKage
01.05.2012 , 02:44 AM | #10
Do any of you feel playing at off hours greatly improves the crispness of your game play?

Played an alt last night at 3 am and it was very very smooth ... no pvp thou.
Controlled Chaos - EU Republic PvP guild - Hex Droid Server