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Do you think light side sith are still sith?(spoiler warning)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Do you think light side sith are still sith?(spoiler warning)

Zephorys's Avatar


Zephorys
01.05.2012 , 06:24 AM | #21
IMO, if you made nothing but dark side choices in this game, your character wouldn't so much be evil... but insane. XD Some decisions that would give you dark side points could easily be considered as stupid strategically.

Besides, even the portrayal of Sith in the EU shows them having more than just hate and rage. They're still human. I can think of several graphic novels that show this. In Vader in particular (he still loves Padme; there's regret there, and I'm pretty certain he'd have brought her back from the dead if he could have).

The Jedi favor serenity over emotion of pretty much any kind. While dark side users feed on hate and rage, I think someone that passionate would have to feel other things as well. Also, Sith, unlike Jedi, are able to form attachments (again, Padme), and in the case of having attachment to people, feeling /some/ strong positive emotions towards certain individuals goes without saying. I think killing everybody in your path except for the few you love is still pretty dark.

As for Sith at Light I+, the game pretty much forces you to do a ton of darkside stuff, whether you make dark or light choices. Isn't slaughtering a ton of soldiers/aliens/staff/innocents/etc., and then at the end of the mission saying "Well, I'm not mean enough to steal your valuable data" (ding! light points!) still pretty bad? XD You may not get dark points for killing all of the technicians and whatnot just to steal their data, but it was pretty rotten, you've got to admit.

ColisCarlyle's Avatar


ColisCarlyle
01.05.2012 , 06:32 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
Your first paragraph is a misconception of the Jedi Code.
That may well be true, but taking the lines as written, I do find them unclear.

The Wookieepedia article is interesting, here. It says, for example, that the original form of the first line was 'Emotion, yet peace', which to me speaks rather differently than the more commonly quoted version, 'There is no emotion, there is peace'.

And interpretation makes quite a lot of difference.

Quote:
The Jedi don't believe in becoming robots. The idea is not to let your emotions rule you. The Jedi seek to control their emotions and make decisions logically. The Jedi believe in mercy, compassion, love, and kindness. Jedi smile, Jedi laugh, and Jedi do have fun.
...But they're apparently not supposed to make decisions based on emotions, but rather based on reason.

And that's fine. But my first concluding point is that this doesn't always appear to be the case in the actual game. A decision made motivated entirely by compassion is likely to get you Light Side points, but a dispassionate decision based on reason is likely to get you Dark Side points. The thing with the medicine on Ord Mantell, for instance.

(I realise that many if not all these cases are likely to be subjective, and will vary based on individual interpretation, but surely the behaviour of the Force should be objective? I don't have an answer, I only wish to call attention to the inconsistency.)

Quote:
As for the second one.. a true Sith. It does. The Sith draw their power from Anger and Fear. Some even draw their power on the suffering of others. The Sith do not believe in compassion. To them compassion is a weakness. As is kindness. The Sith teach this to go against this is to go against the teachings of the Sith.
That's more an in-character interpretation thing. That is to say, the in-character interpretation made by my Light-Sided Sith does indeed disagree with that made by all the other Sith she's met so far, but she thinks they're all wrong.

Quote:
The reason the Jedi order didn't allow love is out of caution.
I too have come to that conclusion.

Quote:
They don't believe love is bad. The problem is that love can lead to someone acting on emotion rather than logic.
...Ah, but there, you see, I'm not convinced that acting on emotion rather than logic is always bad. I'd phrase it more along the lines of... Even positive emotions can quickly lead to negative emotions. Love can quickly lead to, for example, fear. Or hatred.

Quote:
The death of a loved one can also make one.. unstable and the threat of someone hurting him/her can make someone react hastily or angrily.
Like that, in fact.

Quote:
I do like your take on your character but realize that your character would be twisting the teachings of the Sith. Now this isn't necessarily a bad things. I mean, even many dark sided Sith twist their own teachings to suit them but in the eyes of those that truly follow the ways of the Sith she'd be branded a heretic.
Oh, absolutely. Her interpretation / twisting of the Sith code is surely difficult to walk, because it does involve retaining self-control, in the sense of not allowing instinct to overwhelm ethics. Draw strength from your emotions, but don't allow them to overwhelm your judgement, and be selective about which ones you allow yourself to use. Emotion, yet peace. And that would be, according to the Internet, an original Jedi code line.

...Which she's never heard, of course. But then, there's the other aspect, that heresy is in the eyes of whoever is strongest, and that seems to be to be a very Sith sort of attitude to have.

Quote:
Note that not all Jedi follow the code correctly. There's many that take it too literally and become.. very uncaring to everyone else and their needs. These extreme Jedi are also on their way to the dark side.
Indeed. My question, essentially, is does the Dark Side come from what you do, or how you do it?

If it comes from 'How you do it' - That is, all usage of emotions to power the Force is inherently Dark - Then the only path to the Light Side is to follow the Jedi code in its current form, and pretty much anything else leads to the Dark Side. No Light-side Sith, and Dark-side Jedi are no longer really Jedi. (Also, Westley and Buttercup are very much Dark Side, and the Borg are actually pretty Light Side. But that's another story.)

If it comes from 'What you do' - Then you could in theory have Light Side Sith to some extent, and perhaps even Dark Side Jedi, without technically going against the letter of their codes. (Not the spirit of them, though.) A good few things in the game itself seem to behave this way.

In an RP context, though, I suspect it's a bit of both. I theorise that Dark and Light comes both from what you do, and probably Dark also comes from channelling strongly negative emotions. Maybe Light comes from positive ones, but allowing emotions to influence your decisions can very quickly lead to doing Dark things. Not always, but it's a risk.

Certainly the Jedi code is the socially responsible one to teach.

sealionic's Avatar


sealionic
01.05.2012 , 06:56 AM | #23
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Code
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Code_of_the_Sith


My solve things out here Generally Jedies are kind of any lawful/neutral...Siths are like pure chaotic either good or evil. Being good/showing mercy won't make siths a jedi...and insta-killin' a dangerous sith won't trully make a jedi a sith...and i could write an endless list here (trust me...I've met some crazy good roleplayers with woah ideas) about the differences and possibilities - but i won't All it needs is some common sense.


My sith is a powerhungry <no comment x.x xD> with some limits. (almost full light side points)

My jedi is like..meh..a common jedi. x.x

Jadedfate's Avatar


Jadedfate
01.05.2012 , 07:24 AM | #24
That said, you should not lose access to abilities simply because you swing one way or the other alignment wise. The force is the force, no ability is inherently evil. No ability is inherently good.

Example, Luke Skywalker uses Force Choke and a variation of Force Lightening.

You are also still a classically trained Sith, there's no reason to forget what you have learnt simply because you do not run around stuffing babies onto spikes.[/QUOTE]

Wrong...according to licensed rpg books, Luke used the Darkside with the Force Choke..they had Darkside points..he had 2 Darkside points, one from the force choke, one from giving into his anger on the Death Star vs Vader.

drollzito's Avatar


drollzito
01.05.2012 , 07:45 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by lokdron View Post
Ok this has been talked about for awhile and In my opinion LS sith are not sith anymore as they get further into there story/higher LS rank after playing an LS sith warrior to see what it is like I don't see how you can consider them sith. I try and state sources from books and lore to support why they aren't and I do agree they are interesting to play even if I prefer being dark side. I mean In my opinion if you reach about light 4 or 5 you should not be able to use majority of your dark side abilities but for gameplay reasons bioware did not do this. I mean if you walked into baras office or the academy or korriban and told them all that you are light side what do you think they would do? They would kill you.

I want to hear what other people think because in my opinion after playing kotor 2 and reading various empire and sith novels out there light side sith are not sith IMO. I am not opposing people playing LS sith but it annoys me when people say they still are and I ask why and they say i use my emotions! so it makes me sith! I hold the same opinion with dark jedi as well. So I am asking people who have better star wars knowledge than me what is your opinion on this?

edit:I put spoilers because people may use sources from this game or any source in star wars.
Amen...

I had a 12 pages topic discussion about this the other day....
There is NO WAY a light side sith would exist... if he is light side, he would no longer be or consider him self a Sith...

Been a Sith is been a part of a religion... you can't be catholic and don't belive in god...

drollzito's Avatar


drollzito
01.05.2012 , 07:51 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadedfate View Post
That said, you should not lose access to abilities simply because you swing one way or the other alignment wise. The force is the force, no ability is inherently evil. No ability is inherently good.

Example, Luke Skywalker uses Force Choke and a variation of Force Lightening.

You are also still a classically trained Sith, there's no reason to forget what you have learnt simply because you do not run around stuffing babies onto spikes.
Wrong...according to licensed rpg books, Luke used the Darkside with the Force Choke..they had Darkside points..he had 2 Darkside points, one from the force choke, one from giving into his anger on the Death Star vs Vader.[/QUOTE]

The thing is... if you are lightside, you are in peace...
Ppl who are in peace CAN'T use dark side abilites... they are unable to summon the power...
Same goes the other way... you need to be on the edge to use the dark side... and if you are on the edge, you can't use lightside...
How does Luke use a choke ? Easy... He was damn mad that time... same goes for any char who use dark side abilities as a lightside...
You can use, but as u said, there are consquences (dark side points)...

And if you remember well, the higher ur dark side point, the more dificul it is to use the lightside abilities (RPG wise)...
What those points mean ? That every time u gain a dark side point, ur char grows uneasy, angrier, and so on...

Dark side and light side are not good or evil... they are peace and emotion
the strongest and esiest emotion to feel is anger... and thats why the dark side is so powerful... even the most benevolent person in the galaxy can become mad as hell for something that happend.

If you read the Bane trilogy you might understand that well...
Once Bane starts to doubt the dark side... his powers fade... and he is almost killed...
He had all the training, he knew what he had to do... he was just unable to feel that anger... and therefor he was unable to use the dark side...

OddCritter's Avatar


OddCritter
01.05.2012 , 09:32 AM | #27
There are examples of both Light and Dark side Sith all through the game. One excellent example are the Revanites you encounter on Dromund Kass, who actually blend the teachings of the Jedi and the Sith seeking first and foremost, power. As the Emperor in the Star Wars movies stated, and as Voldemort in the Harry Potter movies paraphrased, "There is no good or evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it!" Making Dark side choices just for the sake of choosing the Dark side can be just as bad and short sighted as making Light side choices. Someone made the comparisson to D&D where you have Law & Chaos alignments as well as Good, Neutral, & Evil. A Lawful Evil character would make vastly different choices than would a Chaotic Evil character, and yet at the end of the day they are both Evil.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.05.2012 , 09:42 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by OddCritter View Post
There are examples of both Light and Dark side Sith all through the game. One excellent example are the Revanites you encounter on Dromund Kass, who actually blend the teachings of the Jedi and the Sith seeking first and foremost, power. As the Emperor in the Star Wars movies stated, and as Voldemort in the Harry Potter movies paraphrased, "There is no good or evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it!" Making Dark side choices just for the sake of choosing the Dark side can be just as bad and short sighted as making Light side choices. Someone made the comparisson to D&D where you have Law & Chaos alignments as well as Good, Neutral, & Evil. A Lawful Evil character would make vastly different choices than would a Chaotic Evil character, and yet at the end of the day they are both Evil.
*spoilers*





Except a Light Sith isn't lawful evil. Again, as stated, in the Sith Warrior storyline your character actually starts following the Jedi Code. You can even argue amongst other Sith from time to time and you quote the Jedi code when doing so. Not only that but you have several times to work with the Jedi. Even the Jedi find you very different. You work with a Jedi and at the end he asks "So do we walk away as friends or enemies." if you don't choose to kill him. You can tell him "We leave as friends." He sends you mail later saying he doesn't understand it as you don't benefit it but that maybe not all is lost in the empire. He said he took your example and decided to use it when teaching future Jedi.

As a Light sith you want to CHANGE the Empire from the inside. You no longer agree with Sith teachings. You no longer agree with the other Sith. You no longer fully support the current Empire. I guess at that point your character more resembles one of the Imperial Knights later in the timeline.

lokdron's Avatar


lokdron
01.05.2012 , 10:55 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
*spoilers*





Except a Light Sith isn't lawful evil. Again, as stated, in the Sith Warrior storyline your character actually starts following the Jedi Code. You can even argue amongst other Sith from time to time and you quote the Jedi code when doing so. Not only that but you have several times to work with the Jedi. Even the Jedi find you very different. You work with a Jedi and at the end he asks "So do we walk away as friends or enemies." if you don't choose to kill him. You can tell him "We leave as friends." He sends you mail later saying he doesn't understand it as you don't benefit it but that maybe not all is lost in the empire. He said he took your example and decided to use it when teaching future Jedi.

As a Light sith you want to CHANGE the Empire from the inside. You no longer agree with Sith teachings. You no longer agree with the other Sith. You no longer fully support the current Empire. I guess at that point your character more resembles one of the Imperial Knights later in the timeline.
I agree with you. Your dark side reflection pretty much bluntly states that your not a sith anymore and if you try and say you do follow the way of the sith it says "stop lying to yourself" it also says that the other sith around you can sometimes smell the rot of the light around your sith warrior. Lets not forget the dark side reflection stating that as a LS sith you are denying the emotions that makes a sith a sith. Plus the dark side reflection pretty much says if your master or fellow sith find out your light side they WILL destory you.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.05.2012 , 10:59 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by lokdron View Post
I agree with you. Your dark side reflection pretty much bluntly states that your not a sith anymore and if you try and say you do follow the way of the sith it says "stop lying to yourself" it also says that the other sith around you can sometimes smell the rot of the light around your sith warrior. Lets not forget the dark side reflection stating that as a LS sith you are denying the emotions that makes a sith a sith. Plus the dark side reflection pretty much says if your master or fellow sith find out your light side they WILL destory you.
You can even acknowledge that with

*Spoilers*







"My master is blind to my feelings."