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Do you think light side sith are still sith?(spoiler warning)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Do you think light side sith are still sith?(spoiler warning)

Kirameki's Avatar


Kirameki
01.05.2012 , 01:29 AM | #11
The whole light / dark side should not be taken so strictly. Already noticed that some "light" side choices result in people you captured instead of being killed they are being torturted for the rest of their remaining life.
Example of some quests I had
I find it more light to kill the poor sods (which requires a dark side choice) then to send them off to infinite long torture (which required a light side choice in this matter) by the empire. Here is me thinking killing them would be an act of mercy and a light side choice , just my 2 cents.

lokdron's Avatar


lokdron
01.05.2012 , 02:00 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Kirameki View Post
The whole light / dark side should not be taken so strictly. Already noticed that some "light" side choices result in people you captured instead of being killed they are being torturted for the rest of their remaining life.
Example of some quests I had
I find it more light to kill the poor sods (which requires a dark side choice) then to send them off to infinite long torture (which required a light side choice in this matter) by the empire. Here is me thinking killing them would be an act of mercy and a light side choice , just my 2 cents.
Well I more of see those decisions as you getting light side points for sparing him when you have the choice to kill them the people doing the torture are the ones getting the dark side points not you. Well thats how I see it.

Thejackalkernel's Avatar


Thejackalkernel
01.05.2012 , 02:07 AM | #13
Light side Sith seem to be more prone to sitting and thinking and reflecting on their passion for the ones around them, where as dark side Sith seem to be more physical with attacking the ones they hate by striking out.

A man not killed in anger is a good thing, a man killed in hate is definitely a bad thing, the fact that the person is then transported to a torture chamber has nothing to do with you and he may one day escape, its like batman not killing the joker but sending him to jail.

But I think if you take a Side, certain other things should be available to you other than armour, maybe different ways of fighting, I can imagine a dark side sith being messy and hacking and stabbing where as a light side sith will flow and slice and would be alot less jerky.

you would also get certain powers which only the light/dark side can ascertain, such as if your light side you will have force mind control, where as a dark side sith would have torture.

but there should be more options on being a light side/ dark side sith definitely and there isn't much differentiation atm just dialogue in the story line and armour.
"The Best kind of Bounty is one at lunch after a long days work"

www.12thmechanised.com

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.05.2012 , 02:13 AM | #14
How many of you who are claiming "You're lawful evil" or your choices are "Bad but not as Bad" have actually played the Sith Warrior story ALL the way through as Light V? I can assure you that the Sith in the story ends up like a Jedi on the side of the Empire.

SPOILERS





You have the option multiple times to spread Jedi teachings. Your Sith even recites similar lines to the Jedi such as there is no emotion there is peace. The Sith Warrior is clearly Light Side hiding among the other Sith and you have the option to straight up tell Jaesa that the best method is to change the empire from within. You are not "More dark than a Jedi but Light for a Sith." you are extremely light by the end of chapter three. By the end of Act 1 when Jaessa uses her powers on you she see's you as a beacon of light.

You confront, when walking Jaessa's path a shadow version of yourself that is a reflection of your dark side. It insults you for being light and tells you that when the Sith find out you'll be destroyed. It tries to tempt you back to the dark side. There's no question about it. A Light Sith is Light and honestly I don't see a Light Sith as truly a Sith anymore. Just as a Dark Jedi is no longer truly a Jedi.

ColisCarlyle's Avatar


ColisCarlyle
01.05.2012 , 02:31 AM | #15
There do seem to be aspects of the whole 'Light Side Sith' situation that don't make a lot of sense to me... But only in the area of the Force itself, and what the Dark Side and the Light Side actually *are*.

The reasoning behind my Light Side Sith Sorcerer (!) is something like this:

The Jedi code tells you to discard all emotions in favour of 'tranquility', 'serenity' and so forth. That's all very well in the case of things like anger and hatred, but what about other emotions, such as love, compassion, or pity?

The Sith code tells you to draw strength from your passions, and that that strength will give you the power to do whatever you want, more or less. It doesn't at any point say that all your passions have to be destructive or negative, or that the things that you want to do in the end have to be self-serving or 'evil' things.

So, she goes around making generally morally upstanding decisions. Also mocking arrogant people and being as sarcastic as possible, but that's allowed. As someone says quite early on, a Sith with a conscience. Her heart rules her head - Her passions override pure reason - And so she does what feels right. And somehow, that generates Light Side points.

Certainly, if she did make it obvious to the wrong people that she was all Light aspected, they might try to kill her, so... Don't do that. Lies of omission are both moderately acceptable in a moral sense, and consistent with general Sith behaviour. And if people who don't pose that sort of a threat notice that she's behaving oddly and call her on it - Well, she's a Sith, she does what she wants, and it's not for them to object. 'Them', in this case, being people not powerful enough to stop her.

So, in general, I think there's a possible answer to the point that 'surely the other Sith would kill them', namely that all you really need in order to be a Light-Sided Sith is to be strong enough to get away with it - And that fits right into the Sith code. Nothing wrong there.

I can also see that there are ways in which someone of good principle might *intentionally* choose to follow the Sith code instead of the Jedi code: The Sith code encourages selfish and amoral behaviour, certainly, and their society even more so, but it doesn't *dictate* it, and some people might regard the enforced rejection of all emotion to be worse on an individual level. After all, in one of the Tython quests, whenever I hear that Jedi Master saying that 'there is no room for pity in the heart of a Jedi', I start to hear a Dalek voice shouting 'Pi-Ty? What is this Pi-Ty?'... Sometimes I worry about the Jedi...

Finally, though, there's the thing that makes no sense. That Light-Side Sith character of mine quite definitely draws power from emotion, and tries to use that power to do good things. But...

...If all emotion manifests itself as the Dark Side, then she herself should also be Dark Side aspected, despite choosing 'good' options wherever I could. And then I start thinking thoughts along the lines of Light Is Not Good and Dark Is Not Evil...

...Or, if only 'negative' emotions manifest as the Dark Side, and 'positive' emotions manifest as the Light Side... Well, that just means that the Jedi are perhaps being a bit over-cautious. Their concern seems to be that things like love *lead to* the Dark Side, rather than being inherently Dark aspected themselves. Love Makes You Crazy, and all that, with overtones of Love Makes You Evil. They arguably have a point. Nobody said that being a Light Sith would be easy, and if you have to teach people about the Force, you probably wouldn't want to encourage it. But I, at least, would argue that is could be theoretically possible.

Option 2 seems more consistent with what we see, at least to me.

But in the end, my points are these:

1) I think there might be a possible disconnect occasionally between the moral / ethical nature of dialog choices and whether they give Dark or Light points. A bit like the similar issue in Jade Empire, in fact. That's all down to the game.

2) I think it could be theoretically possible to play a character who does good things, yet technically follows the Sith code, and thinks that the Jedi code is worse. (After all, it's practically designed to sound enticingly innocuous...)

Sorry for the rambling.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
01.05.2012 , 02:52 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by ColisCarlyle View Post
There do seem to be aspects of the whole 'Light Side Sith' situation that don't make a lot of sense to me... But only in the area of the Force itself, and what the Dark Side and the Light Side actually *are*.

The reasoning behind my Light Side Sith Sorcerer (!) is something like this:

The Jedi code tells you to discard all emotions in favour of 'tranquility', 'serenity' and so forth. That's all very well in the case of things like anger and hatred, but what about other emotions, such as love, compassion, or pity?

The Sith code tells you to draw strength from your passions, and that that strength will give you the power to do whatever you want, more or less. It doesn't at any point say that all your passions have to be destructive or negative, or that the things that you want to do in the end have to be self-serving or 'evil' things.

So, she goes around making generally morally upstanding decisions. Also mocking arrogant people and being as sarcastic as possible, but that's allowed. As someone says quite early on, a Sith with a conscience. Her heart rules her head - Her passions override pure reason - And so she does what feels right. And somehow, that generates Light Side points.

Certainly, if she did make it obvious to the wrong people that she was all Light aspected, they might try to kill her, so... Don't do that. Lies of omission are both moderately acceptable in a moral sense, and consistent with general Sith behaviour. And if people who don't pose that sort of a threat notice that she's behaving oddly and call her on it - Well, she's a Sith, she does what she wants, and it's not for them to object. 'Them', in this case, being people not powerful enough to stop her.

So, in general, I think there's a possible answer to the point that 'surely the other Sith would kill them', namely that all you really need in order to be a Light-Sided Sith is to be strong enough to get away with it - And that fits right into the Sith code. Nothing wrong there.

I can also see that there are ways in which someone of good principle might *intentionally* choose to follow the Sith code instead of the Jedi code: The Sith code encourages selfish and amoral behaviour, certainly, and their society even more so, but it doesn't *dictate* it, and some people might regard the enforced rejection of all emotion to be worse on an individual level. After all, in one of the Tython quests, whenever I hear that Jedi Master saying that 'there is no room for pity in the heart of a Jedi', I start to hear a Dalek voice shouting 'Pi-Ty? What is this Pi-Ty?'... Sometimes I worry about the Jedi...

Finally, though, there's the thing that makes no sense. That Light-Side Sith character of mine quite definitely draws power from emotion, and tries to use that power to do good things. But...

...If all emotion manifests itself as the Dark Side, then she herself should also be Dark Side aspected, despite choosing 'good' options wherever I could. And then I start thinking thoughts along the lines of Light Is Not Good and Dark Is Not Evil...

...Or, if only 'negative' emotions manifest as the Dark Side, and 'positive' emotions manifest as the Light Side... Well, that just means that the Jedi are perhaps being a bit over-cautious. Their concern seems to be that things like love *lead to* the Dark Side, rather than being inherently Dark aspected themselves. Love Makes You Crazy, and all that, with overtones of Love Makes You Evil. They arguably have a point. Nobody said that being a Light Sith would be easy, and if you have to teach people about the Force, you probably wouldn't want to encourage it. But I, at least, would argue that is could be theoretically possible.

Option 2 seems more consistent with what we see, at least to me.

But in the end, my points are these:

1) I think there might be a possible disconnect occasionally between the moral / ethical nature of dialog choices and whether they give Dark or Light points. A bit like the similar issue in Jade Empire, in fact. That's all down to the game.

2) I think it could be theoretically possible to play a character who does good things, yet technically follows the Sith code, and thinks that the Jedi code is worse. (After all, it's practically designed to sound enticingly innocuous...)

Sorry for the rambling.

Your first paragraph is a misconception of the Jedi Code. The Jedi don't believe in becoming robots. The idea is not to let your emotions rule you. The Jedi seek to control their emotions and make decisions logically. The Jedi believe in mercy, compassion, love, and kindness. Jedi smile, Jedi laugh, and Jedi do have fun.

As for the second one.. a true Sith. It does. The Sith draw their power from Anger and Fear. Some even draw their power on the suffering of others. The Sith do not believe in compassion. To them compassion is a weakness. As is kindness. The Sith teach this to go against this is to go against the teachings of the Sith.

The reason the Jedi order didn't allow love is out of caution. They don't believe love is bad. The problem is that love can lead to someone acting on emotion rather than logic. Example. There's a ship of thousands about to blow up but elsewhere your spouse is hostage. Who do you save? Many would choose their spouse because they love them but that would be the selfish choice. The death of a loved one can also make one.. unstable and the threat of someone hurting him/her can make someone react hastily or angrily.

It's these reasons the Jedi council banned relationships. On the other hand Sith banned them for a different reason. To the Sith love makes you weak. A love can be exploited. A love can hold you back. If someone needs power over you all they have to do is control your lover. This is why Malgus murdered his own wife. I do like your take on your character but realize that your character would be twisting the teachings of the Sith. Now this isn't necessarily a bad things. I mean, even many dark sided Sith twist their own teachings to suit them but in the eyes of those that truly follow the ways of the Sith she'd be branded a heretic.

Note that not all Jedi follow the code correctly. There's many that take it too literally and become.. very uncaring to everyone else and their needs. These extreme Jedi are also on their way to the dark side.

lokdron's Avatar


lokdron
01.05.2012 , 02:55 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
How many of you who are claiming "You're lawful evil" or your choices are "Bad but not as Bad" have actually played the Sith Warrior story ALL the way through as Light V? I can assure you that the Sith in the story ends up like a Jedi on the side of the Empire.

SPOILERS





You have the option multiple times to spread Jedi teachings. Your Sith even recites similar lines to the Jedi such as there is no emotion there is peace. The Sith Warrior is clearly Light Side hiding among the other Sith and you have the option to straight up tell Jaesa that the best method is to change the empire from within. You are not "More dark than a Jedi but Light for a Sith." you are extremely light by the end of chapter three. By the end of Act 1 when Jaessa uses her powers on you she see's you as a beacon of light.

You confront, when walking Jaessa's path a shadow version of yourself that is a reflection of your dark side. It insults you for being light and tells you that when the Sith find out you'll be destroyed. It tries to tempt you back to the dark side. There's no question about it. A Light Sith is Light and honestly I don't see a Light Sith as truly a Sith anymore. Just as a Dark Jedi is no longer truly a Jedi.
At last someone who understands. After playing a LS sith warrior I did not feel like a sith AT ALL.

GenWindblade's Avatar


GenWindblade
01.05.2012 , 04:57 AM | #18
i hate to tell you all but choosing some lightside and some darkside choices are counter productive. being if you look at the meter for the light/dark if you got 100 light and 50 dark you got 50 light total. both sides will take from the other
this anoy me while testing bez you beat a guy down who a mass murder .then they give you the choice to blow his head off or let him go (trooper story) and you are light side they give you 50 light to let him go but 150 dark to kill him .***!
but on a sith lightside they stated in the movie(s) that it easy to be part of the dark side and you fall forever but darth vader become a jedi again? which was his lightside choice you save his son by killing his master?

rtyler's Avatar


rtyler
01.05.2012 , 05:14 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post

It's these reasons the Jedi council banned relationships. On the other hand Sith banned them for a different reason. To the Sith love makes you weak. A love can be exploited. A love can hold you back. If someone needs power over you all they have to do is control your lover. This is why Malgus murdered his own wife. I do like your take on your character but realize that your character would be twisting the teachings of the Sith. Now this isn't necessarily a bad things. I mean, even many dark sided Sith twist their own teachings to suit them but in the eyes of those that truly follow the ways of the Sith she'd be branded a heretic.

Note that not all Jedi follow the code correctly. There's many that take it too literally and become.. very uncaring to everyone else and their needs. These extreme Jedi are also on their way to the dark side.
A classic example for this is the fall of Anakin Skywalker from a Jedi to Sith Lord in the movies. His fall was not due to his wanting power for powers sake alone but as a way to save Padme from the death he foresaw. What he did, he did out of love and compassion, However it was his acceptance of Sith teachings that ultimately caused Padme's death at his hand.
Waiting for my Access to happen....

Urke's Avatar


Urke
01.05.2012 , 05:51 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by lokdron View Post
Ok this has been talked about for awhile and In my opinion LS sith are not sith anymore as they get further into there story/higher LS rank after playing an LS sith warrior to see what it is like I don't see how you can consider them sith. I try and state sources from books and lore to support why they aren't and I do agree they are interesting to play even if I prefer being dark side. I mean In my opinion if you reach about light 4 or 5 you should not be able to use majority of your dark side abilities but for gameplay reasons bioware did not do this. I mean if you walked into baras office or the academy or korriban and told them all that you are light side what do you think they would do? They would kill you.

I want to hear what other people think because in my opinion after playing kotor 2 and reading various empire and sith novels out there light side sith are not sith IMO. I am not opposing people playing LS sith but it annoys me when people say they still are and I ask why and they say i use my emotions! so it makes me sith! I hold the same opinion with dark jedi as well. So I am asking people who have better star wars knowledge than me what is your opinion on this?

edit:I put spoilers because people may use sources from this game or any source in star wars.
The way i see it is like this

Using light side of the force = Jedi

Using dark side of the force = Dark jedi = Sith

Sith are actually just Dark Jedi who named themselves Sith after an alien race that lived on korriban ( true sith ).

So if you use light side of the force you are not a sith.

And using emotions is not what makes you dark jedi or sith, its using dark side of the force , negative emotions ( anger, ...) just help you embrace the dark side, dark side then corrupts you and you start doing evil things like killing and torchering anyone who doest agree with you, or do it to innocent people just beacause you are corrupted evil maniac