I've been playing MMORPGs since they were text-based, and the genre's slow descent from role-playing game to theme park wonderland has been difficult to watch, to say the least. I miss the days when MMOs were outgrowths of pen-and-paper games, where you felt the need to play a CHARACTER, where emoting meant describing your actions in detail, not /dancing naked on the mailbox in Orgrimmar.

 

It was all about immersion. Sure, you wanted loot, and sure, you wanted to become more powerful, but the fun was in immersing yourself in the game world, not in "beating" it. You never see a group of level 1 pen and paper D&D players sitting around a table talking about how to best powerlevel their way to "endgame." They are having fun right from the start playing their characters.

 

A history lesson: RPG systems were created to give structure to role-played scenarios. You wanted to swing a sword at a goblin? Okay, well the sword does 1d8 damage. Roll for it.

 

The sad truth: We are now playing the systems themselves, and the role-playing element is on life-support.

 

I'm not sure where the genre started heading south, but it was definitely WoW's popularity and status as money-printing machine that caused every other company to follow suit. Vanilla WoW was immersive at first, but then again, every MMO game world is immersive and vast and interesting while you are still exploring it. But without that feeling of CHARACTER, the game world inevitably devolves into a number-crunching theme park hamsterwheel minmaxing gearfest that never seems to stop. Why play the game? For better gear. Why get better gear? To help you grind for more, etc. It's not an MMORPG -- it's merely Diablo with no end to the story.

 

[sidenote: I understand the draw of PVP and the challenge of endgame raiding for guilds, but why not play MW or BF if you want arcade PVP? Raiding is fun from a social standpoint, but at it's heart it's really a group exercise in managing efficiency. Fun for some, but not an RPG element.]

 

The first previews for SWTOR gave me little hope for the game -- it looked like yet another theme park clone. The personal storylines were highly reminiscent of what LOTRO did, which in my opinion represents the real nadir of the genre (i.e. everyone experiencing the same thing). But after playing this game for a few weeks, I am actually hopeful for the genre. Yes, this game is a total theme park environment, but compared to WoW, LOTRO, and every other game that has come out in the past seven years, what Bioware added makes me feel just a tiny bit like I'm playing a character again.

 

The personal storylines, the voice-acting, the ability to role-play moral decisions during questlines, the group conversations, and the ability to achieve a certain "look" with moddable gear all contribute to a certain level of character immersion. There is still no real incentive to role-play between PCs, and the game is still a kiddie theme park wonderland when it comes to "questing," but it feels like a step in the right direction. If WoW represents a blasted wasteland after a nuclear apocalypse, then maybe these small additions to the formula represent a sapling here and a blossom there in an otherwise dead genre.

 

That said, I have no doubt that this game will eventually devolve into numbercrafting endgame, but maybe the genre isn't dead after all. Maybe one day we'll have games where we can create our own organic stories, just like we did before. Games where your character is described in part by numbers, but not defined by them. One can hope...

 

/mytwocents

Edited January 5, 2012 by ArkimedesJW

Wait a second! Have to go get my "i dont give a damm glasses"

If you didn't give a damn, you wouldn't have clicked on the thread topic.

 

Damm!

 

Ok so i gave it a damm. Now lets see...oh wait TL DR

Yes SWTOR is developmentally a step in the right direction as far as MMO's should go to creating longevity in the market but on the same hand no. Companies that create MMO's need to be very careful of how they develop the game. More so since MMO's have evolved into the mainstream marketplace.

I agree. The days grow hot, O Babylon

Honestly, I'm a bit confused by this thread because SWToR is about as theme park as MMOs get.

 

There are MMOs out there that are less about being directed from point A to Z and hopping on all the rides along the way, but this game is not one of them. I'm just being honest; not attempting to bash or anything. Personally, I prefer my MMOs to be a lot less like a theme park ride, and so I wish SWToR had gone in a very different direction.

Yes SWTOR is developmentally a step in the right direction as far as MMO's should go to creating longevity in the market but on the same hand no. Companies that create MMO's need to be very careful of how they develop the game. More so since MMO's have evolved into the mainstream marketplace.

 

The problem is that for the mainstream, casual gamer, these theme park games ARE immersive. It's like giving cocaine to an eight-year old... it's going to get the job done. The immersion high fades when you start seeing the game system more than the world, characters, and story, which tends to happen very quickly for MMO veterans, but slowly for the n00b.

 

The theme park fix isn't going to be enough for even the n00b someday. We need real immersion, and that's only going to happen if more RP elements are reinserted into the genre.

Honestly, I'm a bit confused by this thread because SWToR is about as theme park as MMOs get.

 

There are MMOs out there that are less about being directed from point A to Z and hopping on all the rides along the way, but this game is not one of them. I'm just being honest; not attempting to bash or anything. Personally, I prefer my MMOs to be a lot less like a theme park ride, and so I wish SWToR had gone in a very different direction.

 

At this point, the MMORPG genre pretty much equals theme park. There is no escaping it -- the only way a company can know for certain that their game will be commercially viable is by copying this formula.

 

The question is whether the additions that BioWare made are eventually going to change the existing genre for the better. I think they will. Seriously, the group conversation thing is the best mechanic I've seen in years for "encouraged" roleplay. It's incredibly basic and the responses are sometimes retarded, but it's a step in the right direction.

Edited January 5, 2012 by ArkimedesJW

Well it seems like very big chunk of mmorpg players don't sadly seem to care about the last three letters at all. Or instead they think RPG only means leveling and character "development" through gear upgrades.

 

The most basic force(npi) drawing the genre to the depths of no return, is the hunger for money in combination with ignorant hunger for escapism, which the current "rpg" genre fills very well for very many people, myself included. I've had a wonderful time with this game thus far, but still seeing the effect of greed overruling many aspects of games this day breaks my immersion at least.

 

You want people to pay you monthly fee, so you go and try to make content that for minimal effort keeps the person playing for maximum period.

That's why I really do like to see the single-player rpg genre to still be alive, though also a bit touched by the tendrils of corrupting wealth, but in those games the idea is to sell the product, and give the player an experience that would lead in majority of cases in future purchases by said person.

In mmo's though, you try to milk with the one game for long enough for it to pay back it's budget and more, which naturally leads to a repeatable content and illusion of character development.

 

But well, at least the P&P rpgs stay as pure as their players make it to be, thus that genre will never die and I will most probably enjoy it the most for longest time, as there you create yourself the world and experiences, but these computer games are the closest you kinda get to that experience, and sometimes it's just about the suspension of disbelief that let's you fully enjoy these experiences to their fullest.

 

Just don't get lost on the long road.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Trixsh

I've been playing MMORPGs since they were text-based, and the genre's slow descent from role-playing game to theme park wonderland has been difficult to watch, to say the least.

No computer game has ever vaguely been a roleplaying game, so that makes everything else you said pretty shaky.

No computer game has ever vaguely been a roleplaying game, so that makes everything else you said pretty shaky.

 

I think you should go play something like Planescape: Torment and come back with that argument after that.

Rift took a step forward with Rifts/Dynamic

 

Starwars took a step forward with Story/linear

 

Issue is either one didn't do both and at the same time get more creative.

 

Luckily a few devs are actually doing that, they got the bigger picture IMO, now I can only vouch for one I tried that is leaning more to an succesful outcome with what I experienced. It didn't even have ability delays lol in pre alpha, but oh well it is what it is.

That has been exactly my experience, OP. I played a little pen and paper back in the day, and my first online games were the original EQ and then Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, etc.

 

I was really annoyed by the turn the industry took after the success of WoW. The entire themepark approach turned me off, not to mention the simplification of the game functions (I think you had something like 85 stats to manage in AO, for instance).

 

I figured the genre itself had just grown away from me with mass market appeal, but this game actually goes a long way to redeeming the themepark approach, in my mind. I've been enjoying myself tremendously.

TOR is the worst offender of "theme park MMO" i've seen yet. Everything just feels like a ride that you have to wait your turn at.

 

 

Maybe if it didn't take 5 minutes for all quest objectives to reset it would alleviate some of that.

Games like this appeal to a much wider audience than something that is as traditionally RPGish as what you describe. That level of involvement isn't for everyone, but if you want it you can surely create it on your own within the game.

I think you should go play something like Planescape: Torment and come back with that argument after that.

I've played pretty much every D&D game there has been. That was a wonderful game with amazing and flavorful NPCs/party members (go Morte) and a engaging story. Still not a lick of roleplaying in it. Until people are debating on Nightline for and against equal social rights for Artificial Intelligence, I don't expect to see a computer game that resembles a RPG.

 

In the face of "literally, try anything you can imagine", the difference between 50 choices vs 3 choices fades into meaninglessness.

Sandbox style games have limited appeal, because they involve a lot more personal effort and engagement for the typical player. Most people play games for entertainment value, and it was when MMOs moved in this direction that they became mass market. It's true that for us old skool MMO fans, the genre totally moved away from us ... but there are more of them than there are of us, and companies are in this to make a profit.

No computer game has ever vaguely been a roleplaying game, so that makes everything else you said pretty shaky.

 

I played some MUSH's and MUX's back in the day where you had to write a multi-page character bio and have it approved before you could even enter the game, haha. Game combat couldn't even happen without a third-party GM showing up and moderating it. It was very RPG.

 

To a lesser extent, Dragonrealms was pretty ****** as well.

SWTOR is the right direction for RPG'S, not MMO's. I can see more SP RPG companies leaning more towards MMO instead of just regular SP. There are different reasons to do so.

 

1) can't be pirated

 

2) players create better atmospheres (combat/social/economy)

 

3) larger overhead larger profit potential

 

I wouldn't see many small companies doing this but it definantly shows a model for large SP based games like FF series to learn from and as well perhaps Bestheda would be a good fit as well as many others probably.

I've played pretty much every D&D game there has been. That was a wonderful game with amazing and flavorful NPCs/party members (go Morte) and a engaging story. Still not a lick of roleplaying in it. Until people are debating on Nightline for and against equal social rights for Artificial Intelligence, I don't expect to see a computer game that resembles a RPG.

 

In the face of "literally, try anything you can imagine", the difference between 50 choices vs 3 choices fades into meaninglessness.

 

I think you might be a few decades early with your hopes what constitutes as an role-playing game for human made electronic devices then.

But yeah, I didn't realize at first what you were meaning, my bad. Maybe we'll someday have possibility to have a real sandbox mmorpgs where the players would have power to shape the world as they'll like, but I'm sure we all see where it would go with the current playerbase that populates these modern "mmorpgs"

 

For rpg to really live up to it's name, it kinda needs to be breakable to the extent, but the people enjoying the immersion and actually living for a while in those worlds, would rarely want to break the world they have themselves made and grown to enjoy.

Honestly if you want more RP, make it yourself. There are RP servers out there. Bioware provided you with the settings and everything you need to RP whatever you want. If you want it not to be a theme park, do the RP yourself and stop complaining that Bioware isn't force-feeding everybody who bought their game RP that not everybody wants.

 

Complaining will do nothing but make you look like one of those whiney 8 year-olds you referenced.

Honestly if you want more RP, make it yourself. There are RP servers out there. Bioware provided you with the settings and everything you need to RP whatever you want. If you want it not to be a theme park, do the RP yourself and stop complaining that Bioware isn't force-feeding everybody who bought their game RP that not everybody wants.

 

Complaining will do nothing but make you look like one of those whiney 8 year-olds you referenced.

 

I think you are missing the point of the thread, and with that level of hostility, you surely ain't either driving it a good direction. Forums are for discussion, but instead are used for trolling, flaming and whining.

 

It's quite unfortunate, but at least try to keep it away from threads that actually have OP that promotes a meaningful discussion.

 

But to answer your post, of course it's possible to RP in the game, and that's why I'm myself at least trying to do, but when you get all the lolkids running around, it kinda breaks the immersion.

It's really not the game makers that are to blame here, they are just making a game to the populace that just behaving how they have been subtly brainwashed to behave.

It's just that the whole genre is no more what it used to be for many, and that makes some people sad, even thought they surely enjoy the games still being made.

 

It's not about the one specific game, but the direction where we are, and have been, going.

There's always been a difference between what makes good gameplay and what makes an immersive world.

 

Games that sit at opposite ends of the spectrum are completely different beasts. The Elder Scrolls is at one end and Final Fantasy is at the other. There are entries in both series that I love.