Why are we never the squeaky wheel?

One of the big things that highights the disparity in how RP is treated compared to PVP:

As soon as I login on a RP server, I get told I've joined a "[PVP]" channel straight away, to um, apparently help us in our need to discuss PVP? (along with [General] which of course can never be used for RP due to the spam)...
Why is it important to put everyone on a [PVP] channel but not [RP], on RP servers even?

Players have made some channels, but people have to seek it out, it just doesn't work for the majority of people, there's usually about what, 30 people, on the player channels out of hundreds upon hundreds on even the two main RP servers The Progenitor (EU) or Lord Adraas (US)... It just isn't working anyone can see at it if they look at the numbers on the channels, it'd be nice if it did but it doesn't, hell the game doesn't even tell you the /cjoin command EXISTS unless a player tells you

Most new players don't even realise there are actually channels full of people talking about RP or actually doing RP over channels sometimes too, 0 signposting so most new players tend to assume the people talking about PVE stuff on general is all there is unless they have had someone specifically guide them to the RP channels (especially since there is no channel search feature either)

And then to make it worse even when players make chat channels, then block them from being able to talk between factions or even in tells, on a RP server? It's so anachronistic to be blocking chat, if you are scared of PVPers ranting at each other than leave it an option like the profanity filter, but with RP it actually seriously affects the community because it restricts what we can do, we can only talk to people from the other faction if we happen to be in the same place by chance or have to arrange it on websites. It's a terrible situation and stops anything just spontaneously happening because there's no way to announce stuff to a lot of people in game whereas if someone wanted to organise a server PVP event they could just say (not that anyone ever actually uses the PVP channel that I've seen, ever, on the two RP servers whereas even with the many obstacles there's still a few people that use the player-created ones)

This. We often can't even agree amongst ourselves what we want. The devs are going to place additions where they'll have the most player impact. Most of the time, that's PvE game mechanics, and to a lesser extent PvP.

And if you go by the opinion of some posters, who believe that anyone who doesn't agree with them isn't a "real" RPer, the RP community's actually a hell of a lot smaller than it looks.

It might simply be that RPers tend to use local chat as IC conversation anyway, so there's less need for an actual IC "RP" channel, and the devs are aware that OOC LFRP channels tend to spring up on their own as well. On the other hand, I really don't want PvPers cluttering General with their plans and play-by-plays if there's another option available. Take it as a compliment, if you're so inclined: The devs trust us not to bother people, so they're content to leave us with the default channels.

The game has only been out for less than a month. It's been my experience that as time goes on, those channels do fill up as people become aware of their options. Granted, it might be nice for them to make it easier to find information about custom channels, and as that's an addition that would impact the entire playerbase, it's a request that might get a little more traction with the devs.

Yeah, this is pretty ridiculous. I had a "***?" moment when I learned that emotes don't go cross-faction. It's probably intended to make cross-faction harassment more difficult for the griefers, but that sort of behavior is already prohibited under the TOS anyway, and should simply be reported and punished as appropriate.

Main theme I see going on here is folks upset that rp servers arent heavily customized for rp, instead they are basically just like all other servers in the game but with the rp designator.

To play the devil's advocate, pvp servers and pve servers don't get anything special for being the type of server they are. Pvp realms have contested zones, that's the only difference. It is not as though a pve realm has even more flashpoints and operations.

I don't necessarily disagree with many of the points being made in the thread, and roleplayers certainly have the right to ask for things. At the same time some people come across as somehow wronged or offended that rp realms aren't a completely custom realm type. That seems like a recipe for being always disappointed.

I don't agree with most of what you wrote at all, and would throw this in the myth column. These are excuses we need to get rid of. I do agree that devs add content that has what they think is the best impact for their community. But they also add content that is directed at particular playstyles and they do it all the time. Why shouldn't RP be included in that?

And as has already been mentioned PvPers constantly go back and forth on what is "true" PvP. Some advocate for FFA, some advocate for partial loot, XP loss, coin, item loot, no item loot, safe zones, no safe zones, level based PvP where you can't attack someone within so many levels, no immunity after death, immunity after death... the list goes on and on, and that's just PvPers, but they still manage to make themselves heard. Developers say OK we think we hear this so will add it like so.

And I'm not raising my fist and saying Bioware why have you failed us! I'm just discussion this phenomenon where RPers have become their worst enemy by not speaking up for themselves in MMOs.

I'm not understanding your point on PvP realms, sorry. How are PvP realms not custom realms, or did I misunderstand? That they are similar to other realms is understandable because all realms have the same basic format. Its the purpose by design that makes PvP realms custom. Taking that into account, if one sees "RP realm" it's not unreasonable to expect the same as we see for PvP realms, but that is not the case in SWTOR, so in that context, I think it's understandable that some are upset.

Yes, but the even bigger flaw is that people think that this a model in the first place. It's true that loud complaints often correlate with game changes. What's not particularly true is that those complaints cause game changes, or that issues are addressed by priority of who complained loudest.

If something is a big problem, then a lot of people probably will complain about it. That thing might get changed ultimately, not because of the complaints, but because it was a big problem in the first place (which led to all the people complaining).

But there are numerous complaints, loud and otherwise, that don't go anywhere. If you look at other MMORPGs (which is all we have to go on at this early stage anyway) there are plenty of examples where players are are very vocal about wanting something that just doesn't happen because it is at odds with a design goal.

Similarly, there are issues addressed in just about every patch of every MMORPG that leave some people thinking, "huh? I had no clue that was even an issue, why's that getting addressed when they haven't fixed <insert issue here>?" Even the non-squeaky wheels get greased.

I don't think the point was that RP shouldn't be included. The point was that some things might be lower priority because of the impact that they will have, and that's not nearly the same as saying they won't ever get a look. Some of the "RP" things that people are asking for aren't strictly limited to RP anyway. I'm sure that PvE and PvP servers have people that would appreciate chairs to sit in or chat bubbles too.

If those things (bubbles and chairs) aren't being implemented right now, it's because of one of two things: (1) the designers don't want them to be in the game for some reason, or (2) they do need to put them in, but have to find the right time to do it in light of all the other things they need to do.

One big issue is that people assume that it's (1) just by virtue of the fact that they aren't in the game, which is premature to say the least.

How is it a myth? The evidence is in the naming threads - we *don't* always agree with each other. Sure, there's a fair amount of consensus on a number of issues, and those are the places where additions may be more likely. I don't see anyone maintaining that RPers shouldn't get anything because the community isn't big enough. The reality, however, is that the vast majority of improvements are going to be slated for PvE mechanics - because the vast majority of players engage in some form of PvE play.

It's easy to "break" PvP or to leave it in such an unbalanced state that fewer and fewer people will participate. It's not so easy to make RP a playstyle that's undesirable or flat-out unplayable to its intended audience. Unfortunately for us, PvP is a playstyle that, IME, has tended to require constant and vigilant maintenance from the development team, lest it implode. We don't normally require that kind of dev attention just to be able to play. Unless chat or emotes get completely borked, we can usually manage to get by. Sadly, this also puts us lower on the priority scale, since many of the things we tend to ask for fall under quality-of-life improvements rather than outright fixes or rebalancing passes.

Mind you, I'm not saying it *should* be this way, just that it's a plausible explanation for why there might be disparities in how community wishlists are addressed. I don't buy the argument that we get shafted because we're just not loud enough. I think we're plenty loud. But (gross generalizations follow here) RPers tend to stick around more for community than for shinies; PvPers leave when their game gets unfun, unbalanced or just plain old hat. Guess where the attention goes?

I think the better way to put it is that there is less of a need to apply RP-server specific improvements because RP is a system, like PvE and PvP, that applies to players on a variety of servers. There are many elements of RP that are so ingrained into the game that we take them for granted. For example, picking your character name and choosing an appearance are RP elements, and they are built into the game at a base level. You don't often see these elements in non-RPG games, which use assigned character names/appearances/etc.

What this means is that RP concerns often will be addressed as larger system changes. The latest dev blog talks about changes they are making so that people can maintain a custom appearance without sacrificing end-game PvE and PvP stats. It's obvious how character appearance is important to RP, so why wouldn't this be an example of an "RP issue" that is a high priority committment from the devs?

The answer seems to be because it also happens to be an issue that PvE/PvP players care about too. That hardly seems to be a fair way of assessing whether the devs are concerned about RPers. A better way might be to say that the "vast majority of players engage in some form of RP play" too.