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A couple points missed by the Pro-addon crowd


Amiracle's Avatar


Amiracle
01.04.2012 , 02:28 PM | #31
I wonder

If a company made a game with hundreds of abilities and practice dummies how many of the pro dps crowd would play it?

Sythrasz's Avatar


Sythrasz
01.04.2012 , 02:33 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Amiracle View Post
I wonder

If a company made a game with hundreds of abilities and practice dummies how many of the pro dps crowd would play it?
You don't understand the mindset at all. They're a means to an end, not the end itself.

Sneen's Avatar


Sneen
01.04.2012 , 02:38 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Helagoth View Post
Saying something then asking others to prove you wrong is not a logical argument. I could say "most people use addon's" and it would be just as valid.
The whole scientific world is based on that principle, though. Some1 shouts something, backed by 1 or 2 arguments/results. This stays valid untill the rest find an experiment that proves the OP wrong. So far I still have to agree with the OP. I see the stats from Curse are removed, but I remember that the number 1 add-on was DL'ed 20M times. Which logically means that the chances are biggest that a maximum of 1M people use it (20 DL's per person because of all the patching, is a very reasonable assumption, an maybe on the low side). Considering a 10M playerbase, it means that 90% (!) does not use that add-on. It therefor logically follows, that over half of the playerbase does not use add-ons in WoW, and since in it's basis SW:TOR and WoW are the same game (MMO RPG with endgame raiding content), it's save to assume that the same percentages go for SW:TOR. THAT proves the OP's argument. Ofc, that is my opinion. I do like to see an argument similar to mine, that disproves is.


Quote: Originally Posted by Helagoth View Post
First, no one is requiring anyone to raid. No one is requiring anyone to join a guild that requires addon's. If you want to be in those guilds, you follow their rules. So saying that people need addon's to raid is a falacy.

And DBM vs UI tweaks and damage meters are not the same level of addon. Also, yes, Blizzard has made functionality that allowed for gamebreaking addons (IE Healbot that auto healed the lowest health person, the Wrath addon that put red circles on the ground where you shouldn't stand, etc), and they were easy to break. You disable their info stream.

DBM works because there is a WoW API that tells the client when the fight starts and when an ability was used, along with the graphical means to display timers. Without those hooks, DBM doesn't work.
If you're serious about raiding, but believe that raiding does not require add-ons (which basically it doesn't) or if you want a challenge in the raids, there is nowhere to go. Guilds demand add-on usage, and we all know that PuGs are not an option. Again, I agree more with the OP on this one.


People are making this argument, I agree. However, it's a valid argument. Without a damage meter, you have no idea if you wiped due to the guy with awesome gear going AFK for 2 minutes while the guy with bad gear worked his butt off, or if someone is just bad.

Quote: Originally Posted by Helagoth View Post
The reason we don't have damage meters in-game right now isn't some moral, principled argument, it's that Bioware didn't put them in, and wanted to ship the game before Christmas. For raiding in this game to survive, you'll need 2 things:

1. Content is so easy that it doesn't matter if you can tell if people are bad.
2. A way to tell what you need to improve.
I have to agree with the OP partially on this one: It will be harder to spot a bad player, though experienced (raid-)players are able to pick them out of the crowd without add-ons (yes, they can). That said, I personally disagree that add-ons make bad players better. In some cases, they do, because a bad player can more easily access the numbers, and then do some number-crunching to improve his game. Also, some bad players are unable to use the wrong rotations, cause the add-ons do it for him some of the time. This doesn't improve the player, though, but makes him less bad number-wise. Part of this group is bad just because they don't know their class the way the should, if they want to be good @ their roles. Add-ons, imo, take away the chance for them to truelly learn their class. I may be wrong @ that, but for me it works best to learn a class without add-ons that tell me play the game. Some basic UI customization, macros & keybinds are then needed to improve my playstyle, and that way I know that with other add-ons, I can top my game and be able to come along with the top-raiders (which gives me choice in the guild I want).

Furthermore: please stop blaming Bioware for the release. Especially if they're part of the EA-consortium. EA has been known for forcing a release, where developers know the game is not ready. EA has already destroyed several games that had the potential to be good, if not great games. Can't blame Bioware for that.

Yoggs's Avatar


Yoggs
01.04.2012 , 02:52 PM | #34
"Also, some bad players are unable to use the wrong rotations, cause the add-ons do it for him some of the time."

Yeah, about that. The few mods out there that did do this for a short amount of time, don't anymore. Even when mods like that did work, they didn't last long. Honestly, where do you people get your info from?

Sythrasz's Avatar


Sythrasz
01.04.2012 , 02:53 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Sneen View Post
The whole scientific world is based on that principle, though. Some1 shouts something, backed by 1 or 2 arguments/results. This stays valid untill the rest find an experiment that proves the OP wrong.
.
That's about as wrong as it gets. The guy you quoted had it right.

Sneen's Avatar


Sneen
01.04.2012 , 03:07 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Sythrasz View Post
That's about as wrong as it gets. The guy you quoted had it right.
I'm not wrong, that's how it works. A theory that has @ least to valid arguments in favor of it, has to be disproven first before the theory is considered false.
Besides, as I stated as well, logic alone is enough to prove the OP's point, as I made clear in the rest of that part of my post. If you can show me that of the 20 million downloads from curse, the average times a single person downloads it is less then 4, I retract logical explanation why the OP was right. If you can't, I may not be right, but LOGIC says I do.

JuliusMidnight's Avatar


JuliusMidnight
01.04.2012 , 03:12 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Yoggs View Post
"Also, some bad players are unable to use the wrong rotations, cause the add-ons do it for him some of the time."

Yeah, about that. The few mods out there that did do this for a short amount of time, don't anymore. Even when mods like that did work, they didn't last long. Honestly, where do you people get your info from?
There are plenty out there that will try to help tell you what skill to use next, just not activate it for you. I see countless PowerAura's setups that people export and share for this exact use, so the player never learns the mechanics behind their rotation, they just follow the flashing icons like a "complicated" game of Simon. I love PowerAuras, just giving an example.
A world without Damage Measurement
Quote: Originally Posted by Helagoth View Post
Without a damage meter, we'll be having things like "LFM for Eternity Vault, must be able to kill the First on Dromand kass in 45 seconds while we watch".

Sythrasz's Avatar


Sythrasz
01.04.2012 , 03:13 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Sneen View Post
I'm not wrong, that's how it works. A theory that has @ least to valid arguments in favor of it, has to be disproven first before the theory is considered false.
Besides, as I stated as well, logic alone is enough to prove the OP's point, as I made clear in the rest of that part of my post. If you can show me that of the 20 million downloads from curse, the average times a single person downloads it is less then 4, I retract logical explanation why the OP was right. If you can't, I may not be right, but LOGIC says I do.
Look up the distinction between a priori and a posteriori, then you will be on the path to figuring out why this is terribly naive.

JuliusMidnight's Avatar


JuliusMidnight
01.04.2012 , 03:20 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Sythrasz View Post
Look up the distinction between a priori and a posteriori, then you will be on the path to figuring out why this is terribly naive.
Even with it helping to counter my point, I have to agree with you here. Sorry Sneen.

My statement came from my experience and belief which I have no way of putting into physical evidence and no accurate evidence will exist upon this for either side until someone figures out a way to take a truly accurate survey on 10 million people (or until Blizzard takes a note of every client accessing with 3rd party addons. Even if they are able to, I would think they are unlikely to as it serves them little purpose for a great deal of effort)
A world without Damage Measurement
Quote: Originally Posted by Helagoth View Post
Without a damage meter, we'll be having things like "LFM for Eternity Vault, must be able to kill the First on Dromand kass in 45 seconds while we watch".

Helagoth's Avatar


Helagoth
01.04.2012 , 03:51 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Sneen View Post
Furthermore: please stop blaming Bioware for the release. Especially if they're part of the EA-consortium. EA has been known for forcing a release, where developers know the game is not ready. EA has already destroyed several games that had the potential to be good, if not great games. Can't blame Bioware for that.
Fair enough