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A couple points missed by the Pro-addon crowd


JuliusMidnight's Avatar


JuliusMidnight
01.04.2012 , 12:18 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Zeppelin View Post
heh.. sorry edited my post and took that out. Didn't want to seem elitist
Gotcha. And that's all I'm really going for, is avoiding a blind view that so many pro-addon threads are taking, despite the couple people going after me like I'm against addons.

/shrug. Forums will be forums.

Sythrasz's Avatar


Sythrasz
01.04.2012 , 12:22 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by JuliusMidnight View Post
FIRST: This is not advocating that TOR continue to deny addons. This comes from seeing the MANY posts for addons and getting frustrated at the posters for how they ask for something.

#1: Keep in mind that the majority of players will never use addons. Even in WoW, more players just log on and play without a single addon than those that use them.

#2: To the "Then don't use them crowd": There are two things wrong with this argument, though it sounds good in theory. First, is that if addons are added, they will become required for raiding. This is because they're useful and end up helping. No problem there in my mind, just remember this when saying that not everyone has to use them. Second, most folks cite a few core addon needs but forget that if BW allows 3rd party addons, then all shapes and sizes of addons will come in. Many of which I'd bet BW is currently unprepared to deal with. People WILL try to exploit/bot/etc with addons if enabled. They exploit without them too, but its just something that will happen in MMO's. That crowd is very few people compared to the player base but I bring this up because this is something BW will be concerned with.

#3: "A lack of addons will help the bad players stay bad." Some addons can help so much in improving game play (I miss power auras) but my main issue with this argument returns to #1 in a way. Most the rather bad people are going to stay bad and never try to improve and along the same lines, most people concerned with improving will find ways to test it without addons if they have to. The addons are probably the most accurate way to cover this but it will not do anything for those that already don't care about getting told they're fail.


My request here? Look into your argument more when you make it. I use addons in WoW, I would use them if they come to TOR, but be a little more open than just screaming for them and screaming at anyone against you. Maybe there is a compromise that players can make with BW? Maybe we can get them to implement the core things we want into their UI, and continue to improve upon that as time goes on. Of course, this is all a pipe dream as many forum goers are lucky to complete a sentence correctly, but I will continue to dream because this fantasy land of people using their brains to achieve something is a very shiny place.
#1 speculation, dismissed.
#2 slippery slope fallacy, dismissed
#3 Strawman, no one is making that argument.

Try making some arguments that don't fall into obvious fallacies before requesting that people make informed arguments.

JuliusMidnight's Avatar


JuliusMidnight
01.04.2012 , 12:28 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Sythrasz View Post
#1 speculation, dismissed.
#2 slippery slope fallacy, dismissed
#3 Strawman, no one is making that argument.

Try making some arguments that don't fall into obvious fallacies before requesting that people make informed arguments.
Alright.

#1: Already stated I don't have hard proof, but I want you to prove to me that +5million WoW players use addons. I still believe in my first point but we'll follow court rules and say the point is tossed due to lack of proof. Lets look at the others, shall we?

#2: Fallacy? Raiding guilds all require at least a DBM equivilent, some require more. Allowing addons to TOR will bring similar functions and the same results. Saying players don't have to use addons then requiring them to raid is an invalid argument. (I'm not saying its better for the raiding community. I'm saying the argument itself is invalid)

#3: Check the MANY posts on these forums from people stating the exact thing that a lack of DPS meters and the like will keep bad players hidden and able to stay bad. People are making the argument.

Cokeroft's Avatar


Cokeroft
01.04.2012 , 12:35 PM | #14
Since I know CMs are reading this thread, I suggest you remove the personal attacks in the user's first post. I stated facts that proved the OP was incorrect (by a wide margin) and called him a fool. I didn't use much more vulgar language, but the OP has a sentence in his original post saying: "Of course, this is all a pipe dream as many forum goers are lucky to complete a sentence correctly, but I will continue to dream because this fantasy land of people using their brains to achieve something is a very shiny place."

So, I can't call someone a fool but the OP can say everyone who disagrees with him is 1) Brain dead 2) He is the only one capable of playing a game without the use of Addons and 3) Forum goers can't complete a sentence correctly.

Again, remove this from his post or close the thread. If you punish some people you must punish them all, we wouldn't want to show favoritism now would we? Thanks

Sythrasz's Avatar


Sythrasz
01.04.2012 , 12:35 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by JuliusMidnight View Post
Alright.

#1: Already stated I don't have hard proof, but I want you to prove to me that +5million WoW players use addons. I still believe in my first point but we'll follow court rules and say the point is tossed due to lack of proof. Lets look at the others, shall we?

#2: Fallacy? Raiding guilds all require at least a DBM equivilent, some require more. Allowing addons to TOR will bring similar functions and the same results. Saying players don't have to use addons then requiring them to raid is an invalid argument. (I'm not saying its better for the raiding community. I'm saying the argument itself is invalid)

#3: Check the MANY posts on these forums from people stating the exact thing that a lack of DPS meters and the like will keep bad players hidden and able to stay bad. People are making the argument.
#1 burden of proof fallacy, here we go again. But yes, let's turn this one over for now.

#2 the slippery slope fallacy here consists in you stating that IF addons are added, they WILL (necessarily) become needed for raiding. This is unsubstantiated. Look up the problem of induction if you're thinking about replying "but WoW has shown us [...]".

#3 the argument I see people making, which in wording resembles yours, is that of assigning a motive to the people not wanting addons of wanting to have their "bad" stay hidden. This is different from what you are writing, in that this argument never assumes that bad people want to improve, but merely that they don't want to be criticized by other people. Of course someone who wants to stay bad can do so, but whether he can get away with it or not is another matter.

JuliusMidnight's Avatar


JuliusMidnight
01.04.2012 , 12:43 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Cokeroft View Post
Since I know CMs are reading this thread, I suggest you remove the personal attacks in the user's first post. I stated facts that proved the OP was incorrect (by a wide margin) and called him a fool. I didn't use much more vulgar language, but the OP has a sentence in his original post saying: "Of course, this is all a pipe dream as many forum goers are lucky to complete a sentence correctly, but I will continue to dream because this fantasy land of people using their brains to achieve something is a very shiny place."

So, I can't call someone a fool but the OP can say everyone who disagrees with him is 1) Brain dead 2) He is the only one capable of playing a game without the use of Addons and 3) Forum goers can't complete a sentence correctly.

Again, remove this from his post or close the thread. If you punish some people you must punish them all, we wouldn't want to show favoritism now would we? Thanks
How have I attacked all forum goers? You have done a great job arguing your point and putting forth information to back it. The fact that I disagree with the numbers has nothing to do with you doing it intelligently and to a point. I said "many forum goers cannot complete a sentence" which is brought from seeing too many posts with just that. Many posts are a string of words and the phrases "*** wall of text" and "TL;DR" often meet those posts that are complete and thought out. A reply of too long, didn't read is not using one's brain.

You sir, have used yours.

Helagoth's Avatar


Helagoth
01.04.2012 , 12:43 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by JuliusMidnight View Post
Alright.

#1: Already stated I don't have hard proof, but I want you to prove to me that +5million WoW players use addons.
Saying something then asking others to prove you wrong is not a logical argument. I could say "most people use addon's" and it would be just as valid.

Quote:
#2: Fallacy? Raiding guilds all require at least a DBM equivilent, some require more. Allowing addons to TOR will bring similar functions and the same results. Saying players don't have to use addons then requiring them to raid is an invalid argument. (I'm not saying its better for the raiding community. I'm saying the argument itself is invalid)
First, no one is requiring anyone to raid. No one is requiring anyone to join a guild that requires addon's. If you want to be in those guilds, you follow their rules. So saying that people need addon's to raid is a falacy.

And DBM vs UI tweaks and damage meters are not the same level of addon. Also, yes, Blizzard has made functionality that allowed for gamebreaking addons (IE Healbot that auto healed the lowest health person, the Wrath addon that put red circles on the ground where you shouldn't stand, etc), and they were easy to break. You disable their info stream.

DBM works because there is a WoW API that tells the client when the fight starts and when an ability was used, along with the graphical means to display timers. Without those hooks, DBM doesn't work.

Quote:
#3: Check the MANY posts on these forums from people stating the exact thing that a lack of DPS meters and the like will keep bad players hidden and able to stay bad. People are making the argument.
People are making this argument, I agree. However, it's a valid argument. Without a damage meter, you have no idea if you wiped due to the guy with awesome gear going AFK for 2 minutes while the guy with bad gear worked his butt off, or if someone is just bad.

The reason we don't have damage meters in-game right now isn't some moral, principled argument, it's that Bioware didn't put them in, and wanted to ship the game before Christmas. For raiding in this game to survive, you'll need 2 things:

1. Content is so easy that it doesn't matter if you can tell if people are bad.
2. A way to tell what you need to improve.
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ChampionChains's Avatar


ChampionChains
01.04.2012 , 12:50 PM | #18
I just want a customizable UI and more action bars which I can place wherever I want.

I'm a lvl 31 Jugg and already I have 3 full bars. I use my left bar for my companion since I constantly have to turn on/off his abilities since it resets each time I zone/fast travel/unsummon. And if I have my abilities here, they're erased each time I expand my companions bar.

And my bars on the right won't stay how I set them either. Any time I log, my relics are automatically removed from my bars as are any other usables/consumables I have set up there.

A customizable UI or an add-on similar to WoWs Bartender would be a godsend.

JuliusMidnight's Avatar


JuliusMidnight
01.04.2012 , 01:20 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Helagoth View Post
Saying something then asking others to prove you wrong is not a logical argument. I could say "most people use addon's" and it would be just as valid.
I was just turning things around to show that neither side can prove it one way or the other. Therefor, the argument was tossed.

Quote:
First, no one is requiring anyone to raid. No one is requiring anyone to join a guild that requires addon's. If you want to be in those guilds, you follow their rules. So saying that people need addon's to raid is a falacy.

And DBM vs UI tweaks and damage meters are not the same level of addon. Also, yes, Blizzard has made functionality that allowed for gamebreaking addons (IE Healbot that auto healed the lowest health person, the Wrath addon that put red circles on the ground where you shouldn't stand, etc), and they were easy to break. You disable their info stream.

DBM works because there is a WoW API that tells the client when the fight starts and when an ability was used, along with the graphical means to display timers. Without those hooks, DBM doesn't work.
Addons are not required to raid, in my option, but guilds will require them for raiding if the functionality comes out. This feels like to me that we are saying "Give us addons, you don't have to use them! Oh to join with us you need these addons... Have fun with whatever it is you do!"

Also for the "level" of addon API's allowed, I guess we would have to see what TOR allows. Exploiting those APIs would never be a game breaker either, I apologize if it came across that I felt that way, just that it is likely something we need be aware of regardless how constrictive the API's end up being. Just remember that someone will find a way to break it, they always do. Then it will be fixed, such is the way of things.


Quote:
People are making this argument, I agree. However, it's a valid argument. Without a damage meter, you have no idea if you wiped due to the guy with awesome gear going AFK for 2 minutes while the guy with bad gear worked his butt off, or if someone is just bad.

The reason we don't have damage meters in-game right now isn't some moral, principled argument, it's that Bioware didn't put them in, and wanted to ship the game before Christmas. For raiding in this game to survive, you'll need 2 things:

1. Content is so easy that it doesn't matter if you can tell if people are bad.
2. A way to tell what you need to improve.
I absolutely agree that it is more the status of BW development that is the lack of these features than our arguments about them. As an earlier poster put up, Curse has over 4,700 addons available. That is one huge giant for BW to bring on board.

Also a very good point that if the content is easy enough to carry bad people without noticing, people will get bored. Some level of this content is needed for those people that just want to play and have some mindless fun, so long as there is plenty above it for everyone else. I mostly feel that the addition of addons will not help these people at all to better their play style.

loperit's Avatar


loperit
01.04.2012 , 01:33 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by JuliusMidnight View Post
FIRST: This is not advocating that TOR continue to deny addons. This comes from seeing the MANY posts for addons and getting frustrated at the posters for how they ask for something.

#1: Keep in mind that the majority of players will never use addons. Even in WoW, more players just log on and play without a single addon than those that use them.
http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/deadly-boss-mods

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/heal-bot-continued

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/omen-threat-meter

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/auctioneer

20mil downloads for DBM alone no matter how you cut thats a lot of people using DBM

10mil for healbot

9mil for omen

8.8mil Auctioneer

Im not even gonna bother linking the dps meter addons

All i had to do was google the addons my mates and i used while playing wow to get those number, also note that the figures just come curse.com.

People use addons plain simple whether it is a good or bad thing, that i do not know.
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