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The republic is a dictatorship

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The republic is a dictatorship

Foxfirega's Avatar


Foxfirega
01.04.2012 , 11:42 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by internaty View Post
I cannont speak for either the united state's or the republic(both new and old)
What i can say is that people who pull out of united goverments(lets take the un eu or usa) general cause more harm(for both there people and the people they left behind)

As for the 3 named example's:
If a state would leave the united state's of amarica(punt inteded) it would weaken the united state's of amarica as a nation.

And we all know that the usa is the least democratic nation of all democratic nations in the world(or do i need to remind you that you only got 2 polictal parties who disagree with eatchother on princebol)

They would have to force the state back into the fold or risk the death of the united state's of amarica.
Irrelevant as the Union was not who started the hostilities in the American Civil War. While the Union refused to recognize the Confederacy as a sovreign nation, they were certainly happy to let them be silly until they were done having their tantrum. They were even in diplomatic talks to handle the situation as they felt the situation dictated.

Fort Sumter was even going to surrender as per Confederate demands, but because the Confederate commander in charge didn't like the conditions on the statement of surrender ("We're leaving in three days unless we get orders not to, or supplies prohibiting us from doing so."), they opened fire. They had full opportunity and desire to leverage diplomatic channels, and they declined to do so. Not anyone's fault but their own.

Quote:
Second in star wars 2:the clone wars.
Count dooku made it very clear that they wanted to blackmail the republic with there massive droid armies.
Irrelevant, as the Trade Federation had already been invading Republic territory before they broke off to form the Separatists in that era, and they continued to do so afterwards (most specifically in a dedicated push to control Naboo, whereas before they were more then happy just to assassinate the queen to get what they wanted). Again, the Separatists initiated hostilities.

Quote:
Third and perhaps most important:
Traitors diserve only death.
That said the galatic republic doesnt force worlds to join or stay but they will defend themself.
More often then not those who leave the republic do so with force of arms.
And this is agains the republic's core believe's.
A flashpoints show's that when a corrupt leader force's the planet to succed in order to avoid punishment the republic intervene to save the people(iraq/afganastan anyone?)
You may have some serious issues that undermine your arguments. The point is that neither the Union nor the Republic opened fire first - they reacted to other people firing on what was, at the time, their territory and it escalated into a civil war in both instances. It was entirely justified in both cases. What were they supposed to do, let their soldiers and citizens get shot up?

Similar problems lead to World War II. Germany was allowed to take more and more territory without any repercussions, and even in that instance, it lead to an explosion of armed conflict. However, Germany did initiate the hostilities by invading other countries (and rather aggressively).

OP's argument is poor.
'Your name is in the mouth of others - be sure it has teeth.' - Maxim 16, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

internaty's Avatar


internaty
01.04.2012 , 12:28 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfirega View Post
Irrelevant as the Union was not who started the hostilities in the American Civil War. While the Union refused to recognize the Confederacy as a sovreign nation, they were certainly happy to let them be silly until they were done having their tantrum. They were even in diplomatic talks to handle the situation as they felt the situation dictated.

Fort Sumter was even going to surrender as per Confederate demands, but because the Confederate commander in charge didn't like the conditions on the statement of surrender ("We're leaving in three days unless we get orders not to, or supplies prohibiting us from doing so."), they opened fire. They had full opportunity and desire to leverage diplomatic channels, and they declined to do so. Not anyone's fault but their own.



Irrelevant, as the Trade Federation had already been invading Republic territory before they broke off to form the Separatists in that era, and they continued to do so afterwards (most specifically in a dedicated push to control Naboo, whereas before they were more then happy just to assassinate the queen to get what they wanted). Again, the Separatists initiated hostilities.



You may have some serious issues that undermine your arguments. The point is that neither the Union nor the Republic opened fire first - they reacted to other people firing on what was, at the time, their territory and it escalated into a civil war in both instances. It was entirely justified in both cases. What were they supposed to do, let their soldiers and citizens get shot up?

Similar problems lead to World War II. Germany was allowed to take more and more territory without any repercussions, and even in that instance, it lead to an explosion of armed conflict. However, Germany did initiate the hostilities by invading other countries (and rather aggressively).

OP's argument is poor.
I wasnt talking about past events so why are you?

To clarify i got nothing agains the usa(execpt its incomptend leadership but i dont live there so it isnt my problem)

I am merely pointing out that people breaking away from a unifed goverment do (in most cases) more harm then help peacefull or otherwise.

Also why are you attack my quete on dooku's statement the seperatist where formed long after the trade fediration's attack on naboo.
Back then the trade fediration acted on its own(or sidous) acord and thus it wasnt a separtist attack.

And lastly the republic is like the europian union they need eatchother or they will die alone.
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

Amaste's Avatar


Amaste
01.04.2012 , 12:33 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by internaty View Post
I wasnt talking about past events so why are you?

To clarify i got nothing agains the usa(execpt its incomptend leadership but i dont live there so it isnt my problem)

I am merely pointing out that people breaking away from a unifed goverment do (in most cases) more harm then help peacefull or otherwise.

Also why are you attack my quete on dooku's statement the seperatist where formed long after the trade fediration's attack on naboo.
Back then the trade fediration acted on its own(or sidous) acord and thus it wasnt a separtist attack.

And lastly the republic is like the europian union they need eatchother or they will die alone.
I was about to comment on that, but I'll leave that off these forums. xD

Suffice to say the Trade Federation did launch it's attacks by Sidious' command, but they were also a major force in the seperatist army after it was formed, launching attacks on Republic Senators (Amidala). Under command from Sidious or not, they did draw the Jedi into conflict by aggressive actions. <_<
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Guildrum's Avatar


Guildrum
01.04.2012 , 12:34 PM | #24
The Republic is more like the USA, where they have a number of somewhat autonomous states under a single federal government, they elect their overall leadership, and you can become a state in it either by being a sovereign nation and voting to join it and being approved (Texas, Vermont), being forcibly annexed (Hawaii) or by being a territory and being approved to become a state (Alaska). Just like the Republic. So the Clone Wars pretty much equals the American Civil War, where the Confederacy (both of them) opened fire on the Union/Republic first, and started the war themselves. As such, it was fully within the nation's right to react as they did, by your logic.

Even if they didn't attack, it would have been a-okay to march soldiers in there to retake control hopefully without bloodshed, but after the first shots were fired, all bets were off.
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Foxfirega's Avatar


Foxfirega
01.04.2012 , 12:46 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by internaty View Post
I wasnt talking about past events so why are you?
Which ones do you mean in particular? It's (and I mean this in the most polite fashion possible here) hard to follow your post with the grammatical/spelling errors. :/ Germany was brought up as a case example, and it was hard to tell in the first quoted section just what you meant exactly (and thus lead to assumption on my part). If it was an error in judgment on my part, then I humbly apologize.

Quote:
I am merely pointing out that people breaking away from a unifed goverment do (in most cases) more harm then help peacefull or otherwise.
Which still isn't exactly what the problem here when claiming that the Republic is an oppressive, hypocritical dictatorship that does nothing but shoot at anyone that breaks away from them. They have far better reasons (self-defense) for shooting at the people that have chosen to leave the Republic, there's nothing exactly oppressive about how they handle situations on the broad scale.

Quote:
Also why are you attack my quete on dooku's statement the seperatist where formed long after the trade fediration's attack on naboo.
Back then the trade fediration acted on its own(or sidous) acord and thus it wasnt a separtist attack.
Timeline flub on my part - however, the Trade Federation was already no longer a part of the Republic when it made it's full ground-assault on Naboo itself.

Quote:
And lastly the republic is like the europian union they need eatchother or they will die alone.
Again, that's not even the point, and a poor excuse for starting a war.
'Your name is in the mouth of others - be sure it has teeth.' - Maxim 16, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

internaty's Avatar


internaty
01.04.2012 , 02:36 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfirega View Post
Which ones do you mean in particular? It's (and I mean this in the most polite fashion possible here) hard to follow your post with the grammatical/spelling errors. :/ Germany was brought up as a case example, and it was hard to tell in the first quoted section just what you meant exactly (and thus lead to assumption on my part). If it was an error in judgment on my part, then I humbly apologize.



Which still isn't exactly what the problem here when claiming that the Republic is an oppressive, hypocritical dictatorship that does nothing but shoot at anyone that breaks away from them. They have far better reasons (self-defense) for shooting at the people that have chosen to leave the Republic, there's nothing exactly oppressive about how they handle situations on the broad scale.



Timeline flub on my part - however, the Trade Federation was already no longer a part of the Republic when it made it's full ground-assault on Naboo itself.



Again, that's not even the point, and a poor excuse for starting a war.
I agree with all statement's and will attempt to be more clear this time around.
I am also sorry for my writting skills wich are below avarage,
So you will unfortanlty just have to bear with it.

As for why the republic is a opressive dictatorship i got a other question:
Is the republic smart enought to stop people for leaving?
Because we all agree there sanators are stupid.
I mean the seperative became seperative's because they felt the republic failed.

Spoiler


I think the republic is relucted to lose any member just as any democratic nation is relucted to lose a province or state.
And will go trought any lentgh to keep that area aslong they can get away with it.
For example: you cant attack someone who wants to leave because that will turn your people agains you.
But if the once who are leaving just happend to be runed by a dictator who is supressing his people or has kidnaped some of your civilions suddely it become's legit to wage war for justice.

And as bin said befor the republic is based on the usa just as the empire is based on the nazi.

Wich is why i compair it to world war 2.
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

Henakk's Avatar


Henakk
01.04.2012 , 02:37 PM | #27
Well for The story line in SWTOR, well rather KTOR, Taris, that is all. Pertaining to the movies and more OT, putting the fact that both sides are being played and pulled by Sidious. It seems to me the Republic ask's of a Planet wants to be part of them and lets say for example they say no. It seems later down the line, either a separatist movement (planetside) or a civil war breaks out. It also seems one side asks help from the republic and the planet is once again 'peaceful'. So eventually the planet joins the Republic or is at least a Republic 'protectorate'. So here are things I look at

- The 'protectorate' is attacked, being that they are Republic forces the Republic declares ware and slowly takes the planet as there own, and in all honestly probably puts in it's own diplomats for election by the planets people, Ultimately leading to it being a Republic Planet.

- Who supplies the movements on these planets? Whether Separatist or a Revolution, fight for the throne, etc.. It seems they somehow get supplies from off planet. Sure, some come from smugglers, private supply etc but it most cases, if the tide is turned and the Republic forces lose, something or someone is helping them get better and more supplies.

The main question for me is Who? Sure the blatant answer would be Empire, sith, CIS etc. But what if the Republic were 'fixing' the battles to go in there favor? So they actually provided the supplies for the Seps or whoever but then dominated the planet for their own?

You can compare this to what Sidious does in a sense but we're concentrating on the republic itself with Sidious beside. In real life there have been circumstances of this for every nation throughout history, whether a major war or a small local dispute.

Corruption. Corruption is the name of the game. Lets look at both sides:

Republic- They may not seem like it but I believe they do as much damage as the Empire not blatant destruction but more corruption, whether monetary gain, popularity or just power. In the Troopers story line I see this a bit (Small Spoiler) with General Garza trying the hide Havoc's defecting. If this were to get out Planets considering to join or existing ones may not like that fact of how the Republics Military manages themselves and how those military members view the Republic.

Empire- The Empire seems more to like blatant force and show of power which induces Terror. Killing anyone that gets in their way. This is more destructive but at least for the most part there isn't much behind the scenes. For example and my original comment Taris, The Empire couldn't find said Jedi and simply destroyed the Planet. Alderaan, same thing different reason but they just don't care.

So to me its not necessarily the Republics a dictatorship but rather how each sides conducts their business. The Republic trying to look good and just does more stuff secretly and behind the scenes where as the Empire is a Honey Badger, They just don't care as long as they reach their goals.

Of course if you stay within the Original story of the movies, it's sorta hard to prove my views on the Republic but more observable with the Empire. So have at it!

internaty's Avatar


internaty
01.04.2012 , 02:44 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Henakk View Post
Well for The story line in SWTOR, well rather KTOR, Taris, that is all. Pertaining to the movies and more OT, putting the fact that both sides are being played and pulled by Sidious. It seems to me the Republic ask's of a Planet wants to be part of them and lets say for example they say no. It seems later down the line, either a separatist movement (planetside) or a civil war breaks out. It also seems one side asks help from the republic and the planet is once again 'peaceful'. So eventually the planet joins the Republic or is at least a Republic 'protectorate'. So here are things I look at

- The 'protectorate' is attacked, being that they are Republic forces the Republic declares ware and slowly takes the planet as there own, and in all honestly probably puts in it's own diplomats for election by the planets people, Ultimately leading to it being a Republic Planet.

- Who supplies the movements on these planets? Whether Separatist or a Revolution, fight for the throne, etc.. It seems they somehow get supplies from off planet. Sure, some come from smugglers, private supply etc but it most cases, if the tide is turned and the Republic forces lose, something or someone is helping them get better and more supplies.

The main question for me is Who? Sure the blatant answer would be Empire, sith, CIS etc. But what if the Republic were 'fixing' the battles to go in there favor? So they actually provided the supplies for the Seps or whoever but then dominated the planet for their own?

You can compare this to what Sidious does in a sense but we're concentrating on the republic itself with Sidious beside. In real life there have been circumstances of this for every nation throughout history, whether a major war or a small local dispute.

Corruption. Corruption is the name of the game. Lets look at both sides:

Republic- They may not seem like it but I believe they do as much damage as the Empire not blatant destruction but more corruption, whether monetary gain, popularity or just power. In the Troopers story line I see this a bit (Small Spoiler) with General Garza trying the hide Havoc's defecting. If this were to get out Planets considering to join or existing ones may not like that fact of how the Republics Military manages themselves and how those military members view the Republic.

Empire- The Empire seems more to like blatant force and show of power which induces Terror. Killing anyone that gets in their way. This is more destructive but at least for the most part there isn't much behind the scenes. For example and my original comment Taris, The Empire couldn't find said Jedi and simply destroyed the Planet. Alderaan, same thing different reason but they just don't care.

So to me its not necessarily the Republics a dictatorship but rather how each sides conducts their business. The Republic trying to look good and just does more stuff secretly and behind the scenes where as the Empire is a Honey Badger, They just don't care as long as they reach their goals.

Of course if you stay within the Original story of the movies, it's sorta hard to prove my views on the Republic but more observable with the Empire. So have at it!
This is the perfect discription.
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

Lord_Butcher's Avatar


Lord_Butcher
01.04.2012 , 03:18 PM | #29
Woaw woaw woaw here people calm down i never said i associates with any particular political party nor hate/love for any irl country whatsoever, i merely took America as an example(i could take any so called ''democratic'' country or union like EU e.t.c) to show what happens if one leaves a union like united states or EU(guess it would end up same way in the long run. Perhaps?).

I never claimed i know all history into politic or all the sources or anything, nor irl nor into star wars universe about who attacked first e.t.c but when events like when you try to break away from a union it will damage the larger group/union as a whole, therefore such things must be crushed, it's natural and have happend in history, nations that have broken away from something and got defeated in the long run because of it, the other groups rallied because they can't afford to have one nation being an example of breaking away just like that so to not inspire others to join.

In history, that weakens those with power, and they don't like that so they can come up with any excuse/lies e.t.c to invade e.t.c, and war happens really only because you either defend or seek resources or territory, no other damn reason, it's all about those three things, not about any pathethic excuse because some sort of ''care'' of the people of the ''enemy'' which unproved is massacred e.t.c, lies made to make people agreeing to the ''solution'' for it being invading and bombing others and it ends up the nation being completely destroyed, people dying and resources stolen, all for ''preace'' and ''democracy''. Year that's way of ''democracy''. I don't need to go into details about what i refer so we leave that out of the disgussion, but i guess some people get my point.

Human greed is powerfull really.

There is no real democracy really, it's only a way to make people feel they have power to change, a smart move really, instead of making people fear before you that might cause unrest and rebellion against you, let's make them feel powerfull, and if they feel they have the power to change they don't rebel against you that much. They will be calm instead. People that feel they have the power are easier to maintain and controll and don't cause unrest ad violence to those who are in charge really.

No, i don't associate with any particular world view, no religion, nor any kind of so called ''conspiracy theory'' or nwo or anything, nor do i vote for anyone because it is all pointless, nor am i brainwashed, yes i did go in public state school but once opened my eyes and saw what democracy means, and imo and as proven over and over again, it doesn't exist. Feel free to agree/disagree with me that's okey.

Least i stand for it, and i don't have to justify anything to no one. Be offended if that suits you i couldn't care less.

And to topic again, Republic is no more ''democratic'' than irl nations/unions really, and it is just a little bit ''better'' than the Sith Empire in some aspects, it doesn't kill their people for nothing just like that but would equally invade planets that tries to break away in the long run if they can't convince the seperatist planets to rejoin again, if nothing else works, they have to make an example, ''leave us and you will be beaten untill you rejoin us by will or by our hand taking you back''.

Sith Empire is interresting, a strong leader in charge leading the people through rough times, good for some things, clear command chain, no dull leadership, you do your best or you get punished, hard, but also a bit foolish as well, since an iron rule may occasionally make people grown tired in the long run if not carefully ruling without overuse of violence against the people, causing rebellion there as well. It also requires more or less an enemy, people in that kind of rulership needs an enemy that threatens their lives, in this case the Republic is that enemy. With an iron rule, you need an enemy because otherwise people will question you or object. Create an enemy and show they threaten the people and show them that we can save you from this enemy. They won't question you in your deicitions, just make sure they feel safe and protected.

So called ''democracy'' is smart as long as you can fool people they have any power to change their puny lifes, ''dictatorship'' requires war or conflict against others to work properly without rebellion in the ranks.

Rome was brilliant!

People with closed eyes will reject this and claim i'am an idiot, but those with open eyes will understand my point, i'am not forcing this upon anyone just gives some explanation to what i said earlier.

Foxfirega's Avatar


Foxfirega
01.04.2012 , 03:20 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by internaty View Post
I agree with all statement's and will attempt to be more clear this time around.
I am also sorry for my writting skills wich are below avarage,
So you will unfortanlty just have to bear with it.
It's all good - I've dealt with worse (and a lot of English-as-second-language people), so it doesn't bother me. I can also just be a bit thick sometimes, so I'm perfectly willing to admit at least half the fault of reading comprehension is mine.

Quote:
As for why the republic is a opressive dictatorship i got a other question:
Is the republic smart enought to stop people for leaving?
Because we all agree there sanators are stupid.
I mean the seperative became seperative's because they felt the republic failed.

Spoiler


I think the republic is relucted to lose any member just as any democratic nation is relucted to lose a province or state.
And will go trought any lentgh to keep that area aslong they can get away with it.
For example: you cant attack someone who wants to leave because that will turn your people agains you.
But if the once who are leaving just happend to be runed by a dictator who is supressing his people or has kidnaped some of your civilions suddely it become's legit to wage war for justice.
On Ord Mantell, we can at least point out that not only are the Separatists nothing but extreme zealots (who jack children full of stims to battle-rage them, then throw them on the front line with pistols among other deplorable actions), but they also initiated hostilities. They weren't fired on first, and any reaction the Republic took was purely defensive. I don't think we can necessarily blame a sovereign entity from firing back when people fire on them, nor should we really give soldiers stationed on legitimate bases flak for doing the same.

If we look at the Clone Wars situation in more review (I did, and realized where I'd screwed up my understanding of the timeline a bit; My bad entirely), we also can't really place full blame on the Republic here either (though they get a fair share of the fault). The illegal and summary execution of both key diplomatic figures (Amidala and the Jedi present) can be considered an act of aggression in and of itself. That doesn't excuse the counter-aggression (Windu hot-dropping a bunch of Knights in as a rescue party) all that much, though the Geonosians didn't have to open fire when they landed exclusively in the arena area, either. However, it's worth noting that the Jedi aren't exactly agents of the Republic, though they often act in that capacity and can be assumed to be so. The Jedi Order and the Republic are seperate and allied legal entities, even during the Clone Wars era.

It's even something toyed with in TOR during the Republic storyline.
Spoiler
It's also something that is brought up in a number of Clone Wars related material.

Geonosis was a quick-draw scenario and everyone got a round off at the same time. Nevermind that certain members of the CIS (notably the Trade Federation, when they changed sides immediately after Geonosis) were already acting against Republic orders at the time (producing legions of battle droids after being told to stop, while still a Republic state). It's more of a sticky situation.

Quote:
And as bin said befor the republic is based on the usa just as the empire is based on the nazi.

Wich is why i compair it to world war 2.
I dunno, I think the Republic is more the United Nations then it is any specific nation, as each member is fully within their rights to not sign up, or leave if they want to, without immediate aggression. The second that someone attacks a UN-sponsored nation, though, without properly going through the appropriate channels and justifying the action (which is how the Trade Federation was able to blockade Naboo, and explains a number of other war scenarios) as a result, they should expect an armed response from other UN-sponsored nations. With no specific nations forced to participate (though it may be frowned upon).

The Empire strikes me more, as well, as Soviet Russia then it does Nazi Germany (though there's shades of that as well). Oppression under the guise of serving the Empire is high, but it's not exactly a bad country until you get to the top. Corruption is also high.
'Your name is in the mouth of others - be sure it has teeth.' - Maxim 16, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries