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The Expertise stat has to go...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
The Expertise stat has to go...

Eranus's Avatar


Eranus
01.24.2012 , 10:15 AM | #931
In my opinion it would make more sense (as has been suggested several times) to turn the expertise stat into a PvE version that only applies in flashpoints / hardmodes / operations / hm ops / nm ops.
The advantage would be that the NPCs don't complain about being smacked harder, the raiders (hate that term) will keep their edge in PvE while people who are practiced in PvP get to smack people going into PvP with PvE gear - and leaving them without an excuse of "HE HAD RESILIENCE!111!". Skill > Gear in PvP (in my little ideal world) - and equalizing gear in PvP helps greatly with that.

Okamakiri's Avatar


Okamakiri
01.24.2012 , 10:26 AM | #932
Quote: Originally Posted by Eranus View Post
In my opinion it would make more sense (as has been suggested several times) to turn the expertise stat into a PvE version that only applies in flashpoints / hardmodes / operations / hm ops / nm ops.
The advantage would be that the NPCs don't complain about being smacked harder, the raiders (hate that term) will keep their edge in PvE while people who are practiced in PvP get to smack people going into PvP with PvE gear - and leaving them without an excuse of "HE HAD RESILIENCE!111!". Skill > Gear in PvP (in my little ideal world) - and equalizing gear in PvP helps greatly with that.
The problem with this suggestion that keeps getting brought up, is that it still creates segregation of players and a requirement to have separate sets for PVP and PVE. I see so many people saying it's the way it should be (and bringing up other games as if their similarly flawed system is a good example), yet none of them give a good reason as to why it's necessary to be this way. I see no reason why PVP and PVE cannot give equivalent gear (doesn't have to be exactly the same, set bonuses can be oriented more to what they're intended for). This would open up the game to everyone and would allow people to participate in both PVP and PVE, without forcing to focus on either if they don't enjoy it.

kirin_tor's Avatar


kirin_tor
01.24.2012 , 10:30 AM | #933
I've played my share of other mmo's
and I'll admit I have time clocked into WoW more than the others,
so first off I'll apologize for a bit of a history lecture on another game

this game is set based around gear as its primary attribute, and as such will always have some of the inherent flaws that can't be worked out the way CoH handled it (though they
are changing/have changed their carrot on a stick model too)

in WoW, I'll admit I actually enjoyed having the option of using my Warlord's set
into MC and BWL and being not only competative but often superior
(partially because they hadn't matured what stats for what class and such)
but I did note some of the flaws too,

Dual Usage

I was fortunate to play on a non-top tier server so I was able to work my way up the ladder fairly easy by comparasson to others, (really when naxx v1 came out, there was only 2 guilds on the server who even entered enough to call it progression)

had it been on another where AQ40 was farmed by many, I imagine going up the ladder would be difficult, and an even steeper barrier to entry. This was also during high school when I had a lot more time so I could work up the ladder more.

availability

in the first expansion, bliz added resilience, and also had resilience items drop in pve
activities as well, this unfortunately was not met with a lot of favour from the pve-only players, who felt cheated when one of their drop slots was used up by a resilience item.

something else they did was change pvp to a currency attaining model,
I thought this was great, and also they had the original vision that
they would be similar in previous tier competition

for example,
Level 2 pvp set would perform about as well as Level 1 pve in a raid setting
while
Level 2 pve set would perform about as well as Level 1 pvp in a raid setting

the pvp stat allowed for this off set

this was great for my purposes as I was playing both at the same time,
and what I didn't get from raid I could fill in from pvp, and other way around
so that I could select my purchases for pvp to suit biggest upgrade in functionality
if I already had something pve, but decently pvp useable in a slot

but as someone else mentioned it also creates an issue where the PVE-only
players feel either feel cheated, or they feel like they need/should pvp for the sake
of making runs smoother.

my rogue was a great example, because of random drops, and number of drops per raid
getting swords were hard, and by the time they did drop, I was already bounds beyond it
because I just attained pvp swords which are guaranteed since its currency purchased
and functional (often they were superior to what was available in raid too)

and honestly, I understand why pve-only players would be upset its, true that pve
has a much higher social requirement

in pvp, while premades will generally perform better, there is the option of queueing solo.

where as in pve, you cannot run it solo (not current activities atleast)
you cannot be certain you'll fill gearholes/attain an upgrade
and if it does drop, it may go to another player.

and thus, you'd have people like my rogue's mage partner who _only_ pvp'd for the purpose of ensuring the option of filling slots, doing the 10 games every monday
(tuesday was when pvp currency was given out for the week)

even though this wasn't the ideal situation, I feel it is the best or a bad scenario

(unfortunately WoW did not keep this model, and things have gotten worse and there is a more clear divide between those that do pvp only, those that do pve only, there are cross overs, but not as much)

without the WoW history lesson
IMO from my experience:

keep entry levels low, when new content and gear levels increase, ensure that previous level sets (or equivalent) become super easy to attain (like, an evening or two, not full days or weeks)

pvp stat is good if it will be managed properly,
keeps pvp advantage to pvp, at the cost of pve performance,
but not so far as it becomes a massive barrier
(IE in WoW now where going in with pve gear will get you two shotted)

what this means is that they have to either keep the power gains low, or
push endurance to keep up with it (but because this would cause issues for tanking, its better to just keep the power growth low)

of course, this doesn't make as an appealing carrot on a stick, really its a hard thing to do
but I feel this is the least bad option

YMMV

Norril's Avatar


Norril
01.24.2012 , 11:02 AM | #934
Quote: Originally Posted by Rancorzealot View Post
No it stays! I didn't get my butt whipped for a week straight to have my expertise taken away from me! You become num to losing when trying to grind for your battlemaster gear. You just need to suck it up and get your PVP gear. It's the only thing that counters Raid gear which I personally HATE raiding.

You complaining about Expertise is like a PvPer complaing about being forced to go through Raids in order to get gear. Sorry!
or being forced to grind for crafted gear...

Every MMO is designed around the concept of grind. Grind to achieve. Work your way up from the mail room to CEO, etc. Easy, simple, repeatable and brainless. It is what sells. Wow proved it and this confirms it.
Get in muh belly!

Kyrinic's Avatar


Kyrinic
01.24.2012 , 11:05 AM | #935
Quote: Originally Posted by Hambunctious View Post
That's right, it discourages new people trying pvp the longer it stays in the game.
You have to be level 50 to get it...new players won't face it until they hit 50.

Kyrinic's Avatar


Kyrinic
01.24.2012 , 11:07 AM | #936
Quote: Originally Posted by Eranus View Post
In my opinion it would make more sense (as has been suggested several times) to turn the expertise stat into a PvE version that only applies in flashpoints / hardmodes / operations / hm ops / nm ops.
The advantage would be that the NPCs don't complain about being smacked harder, the raiders (hate that term) will keep their edge in PvE while people who are practiced in PvP get to smack people going into PvP with PvE gear - and leaving them without an excuse of "HE HAD RESILIENCE!111!". Skill > Gear in PvP (in my little ideal world) - and equalizing gear in PvP helps greatly with that.
The vast majority of 50s on my server have at least 6% to pvp stats. Everyone is capable of getting expertise gear. Today alone you can get 8 Champ bags just from the quests.

Darguth's Avatar


Darguth
01.24.2012 , 11:19 AM | #937
Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
I see no reason why PVP and PVE cannot give equivalent gear (doesn't have to be exactly the same, set bonuses can be oriented more to what they're intended for). This would open up the game to everyone and would allow people to participate in both PVP and PVE, without forcing to focus on either if they don't enjoy it.
Then it becomes a requirement that the time and effort to acquire these generally-equivalent pieces of gear is nearly identical. Which is rather hard to accomplish. Otherwise whichever route is easier will generally make players feel "required" to participate in that type of gameplay in order to be competitive in their desired field of play.

PVP-gained gear easier to obtain? Raiders feel forced to PVP.

PVE-ganed gear easier to obtain? PVPers feel forced to raid.

Luriol's Avatar


Luriol
01.24.2012 , 11:31 AM | #938
Quote: Originally Posted by uhhhhahhhhohahh View Post
A level 50 PvP bracket simply will not save the PvP in this game.

There is no logical explanation for having a PvP stat in this MMO game, or in fact any MMO game. The only possible reason for Expertise to exist in this game is to screw over people who cant grind it first.

Even if you did have a 50's only bracket, you'd be creating more problems than you're fixing. Aside from all the obvious queue time issues, the 50's bracket will suffer from the exact same problems we have now; the bracket will divided up into New 50's and Old 50's, ie. people who dont have their 10% Expertise bonus yet, and those that do.

But you might say, "Everyone will become an Old 50 eventually." and yes, they might. But then what would be the point in everyone having the same 10% Expertise bonus, when all it's going to do is cancel out everyone elses 10% Expertise bonus. The only outside issue there is that healing will still be 10% stronger, but if you wanted that why wouldn't you just lower the Trauma debuff by 10%?

It's honestly unimaginable to even begin to hope to understand what anyone was thinking when they thought putting Expertise into the game would be a good idea.


Removing the stat doesn't mean PvP Gear has to go, the point of PvP Gear/Experience/Credits in the first place is so that people who want an alternative to PvE can still progress. There all kinds of stats in this game that mean you could make all kinds of PvP Gear Sets, whether they are Purple or Mods, so people can look however they want to, or however you want them to look, and they can mix and match all these different pieces of gear to whatever their hearts desire. To give you an idea of the combinations of gear that could be possible:

- Primary Stat
- Endurance
  • Crit Rating
  • Surge
  • Alacrity
  • Power

Now reverse the Primary Stat and Endurance, so that Endurance is the bigger of the two and look how much choice you have... something for everyone, even. Now when you're 50 and you arent bolstered anymore, you can decide which stat you want more of, in return for lower stats on other stuff, or you can even decide to have an equal balance.

A crazy thing, having a choice, isn't it? Like choosing to have Fun over Frustration. Or choosing to resubscribe... or perhaps not.



I'm not even mad.
I cant agree anymore with Expertise needs too get deleted from the PvP gear. by the simple facts.

1. it makes the PvP'ing not about skill but about gear, all you need is too be DPS and have full pvp gear. and you can kill anyone due too the bonus you get from your gear.

2. all the pvp players that says its unfair too remove it coruse they worked for it, is kinda BS. they dont loss their gear only that 1 stat. they still have gear that is just as good as raiding gear.. and wen they dont wana do raids then why whine over the raid gear?, the pvp gear stats is fine and good if you like pvping only. i personaly like both pvp and raiding.. but i want a game where pvping is about skills and not gear. any good pvper will allways kill the dude in raid gear with or without the expertise rateing.

3. and its a waste of time for us who both like too raid and pvp abit then why do we need 2 sets of full armor on us all the time? to be able too defend our self in pvp..

therfor i think Expertise needs too get removed

Daraco's Avatar


Daraco
01.24.2012 , 11:36 AM | #939
Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
The problem with this suggestion that keeps getting brought up, is that it still creates segregation of players and a requirement to have separate sets for PVP and PVE. I see so many people saying it's the way it should be (and bringing up other games as if their similarly flawed system is a good example), yet none of them give a good reason as to why it's necessary to be this way. I see no reason why PVP and PVE cannot give equivalent gear (doesn't have to be exactly the same, set bonuses can be oriented more to what they're intended for). This would open up the game to everyone and would allow people to participate in both PVP and PVE, without forcing to focus on either if they don't enjoy it.
This is not a problem! this segregation MUST exist PVP and PVE are two very distinct play systems. You dont want PvP players getting Raid gear without actually raiding the same reason you don't want a PVE player gearing without ever PvPing.

The issue is that for new people( By new i mean players who may already have several geared 50s but are fresh 50 on an alt) who join must work to be on a competing level and this goes against the idea of PvP which is "Balance". The expertise stat breaks the "Balance" by not allowing an under geared player to compete with a geared play regardless of player skill.

this said, gear is the primary force behind PvP progression but i bet the majority of PvP players would prefer a scoreboard or ranking system as signs of progression than by what gear they have.

Okamakiri's Avatar


Okamakiri
01.24.2012 , 11:44 AM | #940
Quote: Originally Posted by Darguth View Post
Then it becomes a requirement that the time and effort to acquire these generally-equivalent pieces of gear is nearly identical. Which is rather hard to accomplish. Otherwise whichever route is easier will generally make players feel "required" to participate in that type of gameplay in order to be competitive in their desired field of play.

PVP-gained gear easier to obtain? Raiders feel forced to PVP.

PVE-ganed gear easier to obtain? PVPers feel forced to raid.
Agreed, but I think the effort to balance that is worth the benefits, and it would solve so many other problems that it would free up development time to dedicate to balancing gear acquisition in different aspects of the game. Besides, balancing gear progression in all parts of the game should be done regardless. Currently, as a solo player, it seems easier to obtain top PVP gear then PVE, because even a solo player who continuosly fails at WZs can eventually reach his goal. It may be more time consuming, but it's just a grind, it doesn't require skill or other people. Being skilled and having friends will just get you there faster.