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Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

Gurkburkenen's Avatar


Gurkburkenen
01.04.2012 , 06:44 PM | #911
Quote: Originally Posted by Tiron_Raptor View Post
It's called 'Network Latency'. One of the postulates of Einstein's theory of relativity (which I don't even BEGIN to fully understand, only the most basic parts of it) is that no information can travel faster than a constant he calls "C", which is accepted to be equal to the speed of light in a vacuum (it's slower in other materials. I also have my doubts as to if the measured speed of light in a vacuum actually *IS* C, after that bit with the neutrinos apparently going slightly FTL. Most likely it's some systemic bias nobody's caught but... who knows).

This means that no information can reach bioware from your client, or your client from bioware, faster than a beam of light could travel between the two of you. This is an extraordinarily short time over the distances involved, but still measurable.

Trick being, you can't actually achieve that speed on the internet. The signals can't actually reach the speed of light, because they have to pass through so many different boxes on the way. They're passed from router to router to router, with no pre-defined path (it's actually designed to automatically route AROUND holes in the network if it can). All this passing about slows the signal down. The signals also can only travel a certain distance through whatever medium they're in before they become too degraded to be received, so it has to be intercepted and boosted occasionally.

Even with this, the total, round trip response time generally ends up under 200 milliseconds, 0.2 of a second, on most connections. These days, a round trip response time of 20 milliseconds is not unheard of, and under 100MS (just 0.1 of a second) is not unusual.

If the travel time was perfectly predictable it could be compensated for: The client would know that it took X amount of time for the server to receive the signal, and that it should receive the success signal back from the server X milliseconds after that timer ends, and compensate accordingly.

Unfortunately, the nature of the network makes that impossible. Signal travel times are NOT predictable nor stable: they're changing constantly, based upon innumerable variables. Which of the almost infinite possible routes did it use this time. How long did it take each router along the way to process it and pass it on. How long did it sit in a buffer waiting to be sent down the line to the next router.

This makes it all but impossible to perfectly synchronize the client and the server: even if you managed it at one point by correctly predicting the network latency, it'd shift and you'd end up wrong again, quite possibly on the very next signal sent. It simply isn't physically possible to have perfect, synchronized communication between two machines at that sort of distance.

And mitigating it with extra prediction has its own flaws: the existing limited prediction is already what's causing you to appear to mount and then dismount. If the prediction is increased, that sort of error will get WORSE, not better. And prediction is the only way, short of someone developing a relativity-violating instantaneous communications mechanism, to try to improve the synchronization.

There are two further alternatives:

Stop trying to predict things, and have a visible delay equal to your network latency on EVERYTHING you do.

Let the client authoritatively decide everything, and deal with all the hacks that result from trusting a machine that's out of your control.

Dude seriously, quit posting Wall of Texts on which things you dont know anything about.

Tiron_Raptor's Avatar


Tiron_Raptor
01.04.2012 , 06:52 PM | #912
Quote: Originally Posted by Brooding View Post
Tell me that when I'm stuck in place because the Sith Warrior's RAVAGE animation glitches out, does ABSOLUTELY NO DAMAGE, and doesn't go on CD. I've tried to study the issue on many of the countless times it has plagues me - both in PVE and PVP - and I still cannot understand why it happens, though my thoughts has something to do with possible positioning? Purely speculative, as it happens even when there is nothing unnatural about my positioning.

I wouldn't call that as effective in World of Warcraft, when my Arms warrior could channel bladestorm, then immediately after use his instants without delay / buggy animation / while actually doing the intended damage.

Some of these issues are much more than just visual disturbances. Doing NO damage and wasting time being forced to channel is a rather substantial inconvenience.
That description makes it sound like a separate, unrelated issue I saw on that jedi knight video: I don't suppose ravage is the sith warrior version of riposte?

What appeared to be happening in that case was that riposte was erroneously partially respecting the GCD, with the client getting confused because according to what it knows, riposte is supposed to go off regardless of the GCD, and tries to simulate accordingly only to get reverted.

Hard to say if the issue is client side or server side, but I've seen some evidence that several non-GCD abilities have the same problem, so it could be a systemic thing with non-GCD abilities in general. Might even be server-side only, which would explain the client's confusion.

It is, however, a different, very specific problem, not the general problem that most people seem to be complaining about.

I'll note that per the OP, a Bioware post has stated that there are multiple different issues being lumped together in this thread under the heading of 'ability delay'
One day my body will be able to take my brain out in public without it embarrassing us.

Brooding's Avatar


Brooding
01.04.2012 , 06:54 PM | #913
Quote: Originally Posted by Tiron_Raptor View Post
That description makes it sound like a separate, unrelated issue I saw on that jedi knight video: I don't suppose ravage is the sith warrior version of riposte?

What appeared to be happening in that case was that riposte was erroneously partially respecting the GCD, with the client getting confused because according to what it knows, riposte is supposed to go off regardless of the GCD, and tries to simulate accordingly only to get reverted.

Hard to say if the issue is client side or server side, but I've seen some evidence that several non-GCD abilities have the same problem, so it could be a systemic thing with non-GCD abilities in general. Might even be server-side only, which would explain the client's confusion.

It is, however, a different, very specific problem, not the general problem that most people seem to be complaining about.

I'll note that per the OP, a Bioware posted has stated that there are multiple different issues being lumped together in this thread under the heading of 'ability delay'
Apologies for confusion, then.

However, Ravage is opposite to Master Strike.
"There is no peace in diplomacy."

Tiron_Raptor's Avatar


Tiron_Raptor
01.04.2012 , 06:56 PM | #914
Quote: Originally Posted by Brooding View Post
Apologies for confusion, then.

However, Ravage is opposite to Master Strike.
Ah... now that IS odd then, because so far as I've ever seen master strike works fine, but I haven't played a knight since before launch. I haven't heard anyone complaining about it yet, but it's possible I could have missed it.

Could very well be a ravage-specific bug, or something. I know none of my trooper's channeled abilities seem to do anything even remotely resembling that.
One day my body will be able to take my brain out in public without it embarrassing us.

Bakarn's Avatar


Bakarn
01.04.2012 , 06:56 PM | #915
Quote: Originally Posted by Brooding View Post
Tell me that when I'm stuck in place because the Sith Warrior's RAVAGE animation glitches out, does ABSOLUTELY NO DAMAGE, and doesn't go on CD. I've tried to study the issue on many of the countless times it has plagues me - both in PVE and PVP - and I still cannot understand why it happens, though my thoughts has something to do with possible positioning? Purely speculative, as it happens even when there is nothing unnatural about my positioning.

I wouldn't call that as effective in World of Warcraft, when my Arms warrior could channel bladestorm, then immediately after use his instants without delay / buggy animation / while actually doing the intended damage.

Some of these issues are much more than just visual disturbances. Doing NO damage and wasting time being forced to channel is a rather substantial inconvenience.
Bear in mind this state of affairs was not always true for World of Warcraft. For several years hybrid classes in particular went through a state where their abilities simply did not work as advertised. Some problems like the feral druid hit box had to be solved by giving every single melee class in the game a snare. Others (like the completely broken state of Ret paladin mana generation) remained that way for nearly 3 expansions. Various classes were completely broken. Some absurd bugs made their way through.

One glitch became a mainstay of PvP because the class that had it had no other active combat abilities.

WoW's current state is not how it always was. It was much laggier at launch than SWTOR is now.

I would also note that I have never had Master Strike fail.

Brooding's Avatar


Brooding
01.04.2012 , 07:00 PM | #916
Quote: Originally Posted by Bakarn View Post
Bear in mind this state of affairs was not always true for World of Warcraft. For several years hybrid classes in particular went through a state where their abilities simply did not work as advertised. Some problems like the feral druid hit box had to be solved by giving every single melee class in the game a snare. Others (like the completely broken state of Ret paladin mana generation) remained that way for nearly 3 expansions. Various classes were completely broken. Some absurd bugs made their way through.

One glitch became a mainstay of PvP because the class that had it had no other active combat abilities.

WoW's current state is not how it always was. It was much laggier at launch than SWTOR is now.

I would also note that I have never had Master Strike fail.
Not so much a fail as forced animation with no actual effect other than visual. It happens rather frequently for me; in fact, I'll hit up my twitch TV for a while sometime soon to see if I can capture a few instances in action - rest assured, it is not uncommon.
"There is no peace in diplomacy."

Afflictionz's Avatar


Afflictionz
01.04.2012 , 07:06 PM | #917
Bump...

Tiron_Raptor's Avatar


Tiron_Raptor
01.04.2012 , 07:13 PM | #918
Quote: Originally Posted by Brooding View Post
Not so much a fail as forced animation with no actual effect other than visual. It happens rather frequently for me; in fact, I'll hit up my twitch TV for a while sometime soon to see if I can capture a few instances in action - rest assured, it is not uncommon.
That does sound very much like a problem with ravage in particular. Have you filed a bug report on it? I'd strongly suggest doing so if you haven't: if it is in fact an ability specific issue, they'll never find it unless someone there notices it specifically, without it being lumped in with six other things under a generic label (unless, of course, the various items are clearly delineated within that label).
One day my body will be able to take my brain out in public without it embarrassing us.

Darth_Nikon's Avatar


Darth_Nikon
01.04.2012 , 07:25 PM | #919
Quote: Originally Posted by Gurkburkenen View Post
Dude seriously, quit posting Wall of Texts on which things you dont know anything about.
Pfft. Here, Gurkburkenen, here's the classic wall of text on the matter for you. Because it sounds like you're actually the one that's confused.

And hey, as long as I'm playing StarwarsBlade Alpha er, I mean space missions, I might as well see if I can bust out Bolo on an emulator for nostalgia's sake as well.
Squadron 11-11-11 !11!ELEVENTY!11! The Excitable Ones

Rezoo's Avatar


Rezoo
01.04.2012 , 07:44 PM | #920
WoW on release, in 2004, did not have a gameplay-breaking issue like this.

Blame the Beta testers for testing the "story" instead of actual gameplay.