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Star Wars vs WH40K


Foxfirega's Avatar


Foxfirega
01.02.2012 , 02:55 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackLotus View Post
You know sometimes brute force or sheer numbers doesn't always win you the fight. And for argument sake i'm encompasing all of SW including the EU, because frankly even if GL doesn't want to acknowledge half of what in it he still make money out of it.

I'm going to start in saying that i'm not that well versed in Warhammer 40k so take everything I say here with a grain of Salt.

while the FTL is clearly on the SW advantage here and that Warhammer have people they can send in without even making a dent in their numbers. SW have the Force,

"The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." - Obiwan Kenobi.

And I don't think Librairians would stand much chance against a Jedi, Dark Jedi or even a Sith since their powers have nothing to do with being psychic.

As we have seen the force will always keep the balance in the SW universe. Order 66 and with Luke redeeming his father are example of the balance.

So in the short W40K might seem to have the upper hand at first but SW will end up the victor in the long run sure the loss of life will catastrophic, the Force will prevail(unless they find a way to destroy it)

W40K vs SW, The Force wins because that what it wanted :P
Direct counterpoint: Every human in the Imperium is at least partially psychic through connection to the Warp of Chaos. Those who aren't (Blanks) are a) rare and b) make everyone else uncomfortable because they project a bubble of null-Warp presence that actively prevents Psychic ability from acting (and because everyone in the Imperium has a warp presence and is thus limitedly psychic, is a jarring experience).

The Warp <-> The Force, albeit the former is through a very dark, dystopian mirror. Because it is Chaos Embodied.

Because of this, and because a Psychic Hood is an active, directed psychic assault against the mind of the enemy psyker (interrupting their ability to access the warp, and otherwise focus themselves), I imagine that they would still be able to shut down a Force user with the same ease as they do other psykers (that is, your mileage may vary - Space Marines as a rule are very strong willed, as are Inquisitors, but then again so are a lot of Jedi/Sith; At best it would be a stalemate).

Further, a Librarian has a full suite of powers beyond just shutting down enemy psykers. In addition to being just as, if not more, capable in hand-to-hand combat as a Captain or Chapter Master (best in the unit, in guys that are renowned for combat), there are a number of psychic powers that do nothing but make the user stronger, faster, harder, better. In addition to crazy things like firing blasts of energy that bore through the hardest tank armor like it were tissue paper, lightning, flames, providing forcefields, breaking the will of people around them, etc. It's an exhaustive toolbox.

The real edge up here for the Librarian is twofold: First, the psychic hood. Second, anything that grants an Invulnerability save (Terminator Armor, which makes one pretty much a walking tank; Certain wargear items or psychic powers that project forcefields). The key advantages of a Jedi/Sith are neutralized here - they can't leverage full use of the Force in this instance, and there is a very good chance that their lightsaber won't actually penetrate the armor of their opponent or they're faced with the fact that they never get an opportunity, as force weapons (wrapped in energy fields and made of nigh-impenetrable materials) can be used for defense as well as offense.

At that point, it becomes a war of attrition that because of how many biological augments the Space Marine has (including the ability to go without sleep for months at a time), the Jedi/Sith is at a serious disadvantage. They're only human, and that's only a very thin label your average Space Marine wears.

...Sorry, I just find discussions like this interesting. Further worth noting that, while a Chapter Master or Captain wouldn't have the psychic hood or the abilities of a Librarian (anywhere outside of the Grey Knights anyway), they would be even more formidable in close-combat and are all generally centuries old, having spent the majority of that time in combat.

It's not a fair contest at all.
'Your name is in the mouth of others - be sure it has teeth.' - Maxim 16, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

BlackLotus's Avatar


BlackLotus
01.02.2012 , 03:08 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
You assume the force is the only godly will in this battle, try the C'tan, Ruinous Powers(Chaos Gods) and the God Emperor himself, that's not counting the old ones, etc....they counter each other, so no, the force, does not win this fight.

Oh and the Average Jedi wouldn't stand a chance against a Librarian, not even close, Librarians can win whole wars by themselves, thats the sole reason the Imperium doesn't wipe them out for being Psykers.
Jedi by themselves also won war. Average is Average but there is also the exceptional jedi and there are other people in the SW Universe that are exceptional. Grand Admiral Thrawn is one i can think right now and Jedi by themselves also inspired other even if they were just average.
"Alone a Jedi is strong. But together we are stronger." ―Master Sazen

Marani:Torment

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
01.02.2012 , 03:15 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackLotus View Post
Jedi by themselves also won war. Average is Average but there is also the exceptional jedi and there are other people in the SW Universe that are exceptional. Grand Admiral Thrawn is one i can think right now and Jedi by themselves also inspired other even if they were just average.
I don't think you understand, there are hundreds of thousands of Librarians, the same can't be said for the Jedi order, their highest ever number was 16,000 and that was pre-Clone Wars.

What you fail to understand is that WH40k outnumbers Star Wars by infinity, they also have every advantage but Travel, and as i stated in my first post, it's impossible for Star Wars to win.

WatchTheGrass's Avatar


WatchTheGrass
01.02.2012 , 03:21 PM | #34
It's not a war that would be won by the ground troops but rather entirely by naval success.

It's no secret that the ships, weapons, armor and personnel required for a fleet can be built, trained, equipped and fielded in a far shorter time frame for the SW forces compared to the 40k ones.

The advantage of reliable FTL, the (comparative) ease with which they can replace their losses. The SW factions should win.. eventually.

Don't get me wrong though, the casualties would be truly horrific.
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Foxfirega's Avatar


Foxfirega
01.02.2012 , 03:37 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by WatchTheGrass View Post
It's not a war that would be won by the ground troops but rather entirely by naval success.

It's no secret that the ships, weapons, armor and personnel required for a fleet can be built, trained, equipped and fielded in a far shorter time frame for the SW forces compared to the 40k ones.

The advantage of reliable FTL, the (comparative) ease with which they can replace their losses. The SW factions should win.. eventually.

Don't get me wrong though, the casualties would be truly horrific.
The Imperium doesn't have a problem making newer ships as long as they're not battlecruiser+ grade, actually. They have entire planets for that express purpose, as do they have entire planets that do nothing but train and ship off Imperial Naval recruits. While the turnaround isn't near as fast as it is with the Imperial Guard ("Get on the boat, we'll teach you how not to die on the way."), they still have enough planets doing so that they can churn them out constantly.

Cruisers and below are not uncommon for Forge Worlds to churn out, and the problem with the logic here is that while they do take a bit longer to get going then in SW... they're already in bulk and have millions of ships in the Imperial Navy as it is. It's a guarantee that the Republic would be exhausted long before the Imperium.

It's entirely the fact that the Republic generally only has control over the core worlds, and loose membership for the surrounding galaxy... and the Imperium has almost full control over a galaxy all to itself fueling it's war engine, and in constant high-attrition mode all of the time.

You're throwing a setting that is designed for constant war, strife, and conflict against one that's smaller in scale designed to support more dramatic, engaging storylines and conflicts. If it comes to a war, there's no question who's going to win here - it's the guys that won't even have to bother gearing up to do it as they're already in high gear from the gate and haven't stopped being so for millenia.
'Your name is in the mouth of others - be sure it has teeth.' - Maxim 16, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

Archereon's Avatar


Archereon
01.02.2012 , 05:14 PM | #36
40k power levels are also really, really confusing. Space Marines are either elite versions of Imperial Guardsmen, high level though not overwhelmingly powerful units, or gods among men among gods depending on the writer, and more importantly, who's POV it is. It's not as bad as Star Wars, where Jedi sometimes develop the ability to throw black holes around and pull starships out of the sky and sometimes have trouble force choking a single guy, but there is a degree of variance among 40k lore.

Archereon's Avatar


Archereon
01.02.2012 , 05:28 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfirega View Post
There are 20 guys in every Space Marine chapter that could wreck face with Starkiller in hand-to-hand combat, and pull off just as many cool tricks in the middle of a fight. And those aren't even the legendary Psykers.

Factor in that every Power Weapon (standard issue to Librarians and Inquisitors, and common enough on even seargents in the Guard) generates a field of raw, destructive power (sound familiar? It's like a lightsaber with a cruncy candy center), and in addition to just plain having raw mass that lightsabers lack, is likely being swung by a 7' tall genetic demigod that may or may not be using his psychic gifts (if he has them) to amplify himself to insane levels. And he's likely wearing armor that makes counter-attacks unlikely.

Each Librarian is also equipped with a device that does nothing but allows them to completely shut down anyone trying to use psychic powers in their vicinity, and they're personally 'iron will' personified. Factor in multiple redundant vital organs, and even some new ones (acidic blood, venomous spit - I'm dead serious, too, these are STANDARD Space Marine augmentations), and are trained specifically to fight not only physical threats but daemonic/psychic threats as routine...

These are people that are born, bred, armed, and trained to literally live in combat every single moment and devote their lives to it.

The Sun Crusher would only be an issue due to the superior sublight engines. However, it's one ship - the Imperium has thousands of ships on-par or vastly superior to the Death Star that are more then happy to go from planet to planet, unleashing orbital bombardments that make Taris look like a fireworks festival. Most Imperium ships are also designed to deal with far heavier ordinance then their Star Wars counterparts are - and by extension, they're used to having to put out more. While somewhat 'indestructible' in the SW universe, something like a conversion beamer (that does nothing but convert matter into raw energy upon impact - the tougher and more dense the material targeted, the bigger the energy release) would settle the matter Sun Crusher definatively.

And none of this is exactly 'uncommon' stuff.
In certain EU iterations, individual star destroyers are capable of sterilizing entire worlds with a few hours of bombardment, with large fleets being capable of cracking a planet into tiny pieces in a matter of minutes. Plus the Death star is actually better in terms of raw destructive power than any Imperial ship; It completely vaporizes a planet rather than shattering it like high powered Exterminatus does in 40k. Then there's that battlestation that was capable of triggering supernovas in star systems tens of thousands of light years away For the sake of giving SW a chance, I'm looking at the most favorable parts of canon in terms of power level.

Honestly, people are really undervaluing what the mobility advantage gives to the Star Wars: It would force the Imperium to either leave themselves open to attack by one of their many, many enemies. In the time it would take for the Imperium to bring a battlefleet to Star Wars space, the Republic/Empire/Whoever could easily have gone and sterilized the agri worlds feeding dozens of hive and forge worlds, which would starve in a matter of years. If Star Wars could survive the initial surge of Imperial forces, this advantage would become cumulative; either the Imperium would be forced on the defensive, or carefully calculated attacks would cripple all their assets in the vicinity of the SW nation. While that wouldn't put a dent in the Imperium as a whole, it would make any future assaults on Republic/Empire space more difficult, and compound the mobility advantage. The sheer size of the Imperium would also help SW in the same way its helped the Tau; it would draw a lot of the nastier denizens of the galaxy, particularly Chaos and the Tyranids away from SW.

In short, I think SW would survive in the 40K galaxy in the same way the Tau do.

jarjarloves's Avatar


jarjarloves
01.02.2012 , 05:44 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Archereon View Post
In certain EU iterations, individual star destroyers are capable of sterilizing entire worlds with a few hours of bombardment, with large fleets being capable of cracking a planet into tiny pieces in a matter of minutes. Plus the Death star is actually better in terms of raw destructive power than any Imperial ship; It completely vaporizes a planet rather than shattering it like high powered Exterminatus does in 40k. Then there's that battlestation that was capable of triggering supernovas in star systems tens of thousands of light years away For the sake of giving SW a chance, I'm looking at the most favorable parts of canon in terms of power level.
if you are talking about the Delta Base Zero thing a star destroyer does it's not canon as it goes against what is set in the movies.

However yes the death star would be a HUGE advantage for Star Wars especially if its the 2nd death star that can fire every few minutes. If protected the Death star could do massive damage.

Archereon's Avatar


Archereon
01.02.2012 , 05:52 PM | #39
Well as I said, I'm trying to give SW a fighting chance, and the movies never said a Star Destroyer couldn't destroy a planet, they just never did.

Plus the Imperium is absolutely horrendous at logistics, in no small part to its sheer size. In a hypothetical SW 40k crossover, the Republic/Empire could have conquered or sterilized hundreds of worlds before the Imperium even realized they were under attack. This would give SW a familiarity with 40k technology, and even the opportunity to reverse engineer some of their stuff or take over the production facilities (something the Imperium would never do), which would even the weapons technology gap quickly if the Republic/Empire survived int he initial surge of Imperial forces.

Wraithstrike's Avatar


Wraithstrike
01.02.2012 , 06:07 PM | #40
As for force vs psionics, it varies from writer to writer, but both seem to be able to perform similar feats. It all boils down to the drawbacks: 40k psionics have some rather substantial risks attached to them, whereas the force doesn't seem to have any.