Hi I am level 42 now and i decided to give our shared tree a little spin. It seems to me from watching videos of gunslingers that our version of dirty fighting is vastly more ineffective then theirs.

I think this is mostly due to the fact that we have 2 moves that have a 30M range and 2 that have a 10 meter range. Also for wounding shots getting upper hand for this spec is much more trying then the other two.

Not sure if it's just me but i think this tree needs a serious look over to make it more viable for scoundrels.

Anyone here specced dirty fighting and disagrees with this?

I can see that. I haven't tried dirty fighting, but a lot of our strongest abilities as a Scoundrel require melee range or 10 meter range, and Dirty Fighting doesn't sync well with that.

Also, I imagine Scrapper is just SO much better that Dirty Fighting seems a lot worse than it is. (Level 46 currently and my spec is 1/31/5 deep Scrapper)

Luckily they did a good job making tier 1 and 2 skills useful for use regardless of what tree we're deep into (crit/blaster whip damage/dirty kick cd in dirty fighting)

I actually really like playing as a dirty fighting scoundrel and I feel I'm pretty effective in both pve and pvp. I haven't tried the other trees, so I may be missing something. But, I've consistently been completing quests 3 levels higher than my current level with relative ease.

I think the key is with this spec (and with any spec) is really utilizing your rotation. Dirty fighters rotation in my opinion is complicated, we have so much at our disposal and at first I felt like I was playing whack-a-mole.

Bleeds and keeping up Pungency are our BFFs.

I thought this broke things down pretty well: http://blackrabbit2999.blogspot.com/2011/12/swtor-scoundrel-and-operative-dps-guide.html

My only complaint is that dealing with Upper Hand is a lot more of a pain in the *** than it is in the Scrapper tree, where there is a talent that lets you regain UH by using your main DPS skill. Dirty Fighting has nothing like this and it's incredibly frustrating.

Agreed it's already a pain to keep up a rotation without any kind of addons, but that Upperhand is a killer sometimes..... mostly in PvP.

Hemo Blast is underwhelming in PvP, but the spec still performs excellently in PvE, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were our top PvE DPS option.

I'm not sure how Dirty fighting works since I saw it's first DoT skill was AoE and didn't touch it because AoE is extreme ineffective in most Higher level Heroics and FPs do to needing to maintain CC. So with 1 skill unusable with out enraging your party I avoided it.

I'm a scrapper which is probably the top PvE and PvP DPS do to a hard splash opener and the ability to increase damage over time for 15 secs every 9 secs.

It takes a while but once you hit 40 your DPS sky rockets as a scrapper.

Here is a sample rotation for my 50 scrapper on Corellia. These aren't Crits and the damage values aren't adding in the 50% AR reduction caused by Flechette Round but you can pretty much double any damage following it triple for crits..

From stealth Flechette Round/Shoot First(3k+ w/DoT)> Flechette Round/Back Blast(2.5k w/DoT)> Vital Shoot(3k/DoT)> Blaster Whip(1.5K)> Sucker Punch(1.5k)> Flying Fists(1k)> Sucker Punch> Flechette Round/Back Blast> Pugnacity> Blaster Whip> Sucker Punch.

Usually you want to use Surrender after this cause there is a really high chance you have hate. If surrender doesn't work your going to have to use Disappearing Act.

I've seen Flechette Round>Shoot First Crit for 7k before adding the DoT. Don't even use Bowdaar anymore cause he can't keep hate off me.

Dirty Fighting probably has better sustained than Scrapper, since Scrapper is pure burst. After you fire off your Shoot First/Backblast opener, you're basically Sucker Punching occasionally while waiting for Backblast to come off cooldown. Dirty Fighting has two dots ticking the whole time for pretty large amounts due to Hemo Blast, and Wounding Shots hits like a truck with dots up.

Won't really know until combat logs and DPS meters come out, though.

Dirty Fighting probably has better sustained than Scrapper, since Scrapper is pure burst. After you fire off your Shoot First/Backblast opener, you're basically Sucker Punching occasionally while waiting for Backblast to come off cooldown. Dirty Fighting has two dots ticking the whole time for pretty large amounts due to Hemo Blast, and Wounding Shots hits like a truck with dots up.

 

Won't really know until combat logs and DPS meters come out, though.

I have no doubts that Dirty Fighting is the superior PvE/raid DPS spec. But in PvP, Scrapper outperforms it by miles. DF does have some nice utility with the DoTs that stop capping/bomb planting, but Scrapper is a much more well rounded and developed tree in this regard.

i dont know i went dirty fighting at 21, with limited skills the AE dot helped me get more wins in WZ, now im at 34 and have a 2/3/20. still dont have the instagib, so dirty fighting still seems better. in pvp i have gotten my assassin medal at 26 against a 50, he was poorly geared, but still.

in group pvp dirty fighting is king, at 26+ i usually top dmg and kills on my team, and voidstar they hardly get past the 1st door, dots keep em off the door while im in spawn.

i usually toss both grenades and vital shot 2-3 people. then look for the healer. run up and stun, interrupt, 10m skill high dps him down. then back out as to not get focused.and re-dot and keep that ae grenade going every 6s. once i hit 41 things may change but im keeping up with a lot of the top level 50s dmg wise, and getting my heal off to get upper hand keeps in the middle of the list on healing.

the 2dots plus furry of bolts, grinds most people down before they get to you, then when they get there your dps goes up. im really enjoying the dirty fighting.

I have no doubts that Dirty Fighting is the superior PvE/raid DPS spec. But in PvP, Scrapper outperforms it by miles. DF does have some nice utility with the DoTs that stop capping/bomb planting, but Scrapper is a much more well rounded and developed tree in this regard.

Tell that to scrappers on my server. Im dirty fighting and Im almost always top 2 in overall damage in PvP matches. I see scrappers barely breaking the 50k barrier. Seriously though, scrapper seems a bit lame. At least, scrappers should be allowed to use knives or something.

Going straight dirty fighting seems largely ineffective, and the two main reasons that struck me as to why are as follows:

-No method of entering combat. You are expected to stealth up to individuals to get into melee as a Scoundrel, or for the target to get incapacitated. At level 33, when I finally gave up focusing on dirty fighting and respecced to Sawbones out of frustration, this was my biggest issue. Every ability I had was haphazardly thrown at me with little synergy level by level, and for a while, I wasn't even sure if I was supposed to be melee or ranged DPS. Having some way to quickly enter melee range would help the Dirty Fighting tree a lot, IMO.

-Limited/uncontrollable capacity to generate Upper Hand. I didn't yet have the talent that gives you the chance to generate upper hand on Lethal Wounds, which means I relied entirely on Blaster Whip to generate ANY stacks of Upper Hand. This is extremely frustrating and limited, and coupled with the lack of a way to get into combat (or move from target to target quickly), is a huge crutch when the class as a whole is designed around that mechanic.

Other people have made finer points than I have, but I wanted to focus on those two particular frustrations. I might go and respec again at 50 to see if it's any better, but leveling through it just felt un-fulfilling, weak, and lacking. I just constantly felt like something was missing.

Going straight dirty fighting seems largely ineffective, and the two main reasons that struck me as to why are as follows:

 

-No method of entering combat. You are expected to stealth up to individuals to get into melee as a Scoundrel, or for the target to get incapacitated. At level 33, when I finally gave up focusing on dirty fighting and respecced to Sawbones out of frustration, this was my biggest issue. Every ability I had was haphazardly thrown at me with little synergy level by level, and for a while, I wasn't even sure if I was supposed to be melee or ranged DPS. Having some way to quickly enter melee range would help the Dirty Fighting tree a lot, IMO.

 

-Limited/uncontrollable capacity to generate Upper Hand. I didn't yet have the talent that gives you the chance to generate upper hand on Lethal Wounds, which means I relied entirely on Blaster Whip to generate ANY stacks of Upper Hand. This is extremely frustrating and limited, and coupled with the lack of a way to get into combat (or move from target to target quickly), is a huge crutch when the class as a whole is designed around that mechanic.

 

Other people have made finer points than I have, but I wanted to focus on those two particular frustrations. I might go and respec again at 50 to see if it's any better, but leveling through it just felt un-fulfilling, weak, and lacking. I just constantly felt like something was missing.

Vital Shot, Shrapnel bomb, wounding shots, hemo blast.... Dirty fighting is a DOT tree. I don't see how this is confusing.

Except that at the level I was having those issues, I only have half of those abilities. Equally so, I have just as many short range abilities and long range abilities and abilities that use cover.

As a player who didn't participate in the beta and didn't go out of her way to do research while leveling (I prefer to do that research at max level, because otherwise I'm learning strategies I can't actually employ), it's confusing and feels clunky.

I have played a bit more of the Dirty Fighting tree adn it really feels incomplete compared to Scrapper and Sawbones.

It should be made a mid range damage spec and i still think that we should get a different ability besides the grenade as it's useless with any CC in the area.

Also dirty fighting does not go well with flash grenade at all, just another little thing.

Vital Shot, Shrapnel bomb, wounding shots, hemo blast.... Dirty fighting is a DOT tree. I don't see how this is confusing.

The confusing part is that there is no synergy. Scrapper has synergy with all of its talents. Dirty Fighting doesn't. And the ones that do are bugged and don't work.

I'm pretty sure gunslingers have their wounding shots on a 9 second cooldown.

Isn't a restriction for us.

There are ways to get upper hand besides blaster whip... but if you don't want to use them I know a really good way to do it.

From stealth you Shoot First. Dirty kick. Dot 1, blaster whip, dot 2, Wounding shot, wounding shot, blaster whip and Wounding shot.

As far as my experence has gone most people are dead at this point... if not hit 'em with a quick shot or back blast or dot them some more and they'll be done.

I tried out Dirty fighting recently, i have allways played as scrapper and it works perfect and great damage output all time.

The problem with dirty fighting is that you need to keep up your dots, and i experienced in flashpoints normal/hardmode that fights where you have to move around and sometimes get out of range of bosses, you loose alot of dps because you need to reapply dots all time.

The problem is the range, i don't think it goes well with this kind of talent tree, too short.

With scrapper you don't have problems with getting out of range sometimes, because we have only flechette rounds in close range and vital shot on long range, and we do not need to build up our damage like dirty fighting.

Atleast that is my experience from lvl 50, i did defnately prefer scrapper over dirty fighting.

I had hoped dirty fighting would be better since it sounded interesting.

Also the sounds and animations on scrapper is much better done, and gives you the feel of being a scoundrel.

Going into dirty fighting thinking its played at range is silly. Its still a scoundrel and just as melee centric. If anything the problem with dirty fighting is getting and keeping upper hand. Not refreshing dots. As someone else stated blaster whip and shoot first arent the only ways to get a upper hand.

If we are talking about overall damage whether it be in a instance or in pvp. A scoundrel dirty fighting spec'd and playing it correctly will always put out more dps than a scrapper spec. For the plain fact that dirty fighting spec'd scoundrels can dot up multiple targets as well as use shoot first blaster whip and back blast on single targets.

I dont think that going full dirty fighting is worth it however. I think it really shines as a hybrid mixed with sawbones. Having two heals that generate upper hands just makes playing a dirty fighting scoundrel that much easier.

Can I see your build on that?

I know Operative side Norr is always preaching Lethality/Medic, but I never saw the build. From what I gathered, you just omit Wounding Shot.

The hot and dot build http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#701rff0zhZZGbbkrbhd.1 is really strong. Getting upper hands from your rolling hots makes the build though. So trying it before 50 would not be recommended. Spamming wounding shot for high burst and being able to heal on the run is a double threat.

I'm going to try this out. It looks like it could be a fun play style.

I'm going to try this out. It looks like it could be a fun play style.

Rough and tumble doesn't work right now, yes? So you could throw those 2 points elsewhere for fun.