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Hard Enrages are beneath Bioware


Draloch's Avatar


Draloch
01.01.2012 , 04:34 AM | #21
As you gear up, it gets a little easier. As far as the tank losing threat, it's a tough thing for sure. I struggle with it too, but I think that's a good thing. When I've had threat issues, the answer for us has been to adjust our strategy to allow me to use my full rotation and I just have to bring my "A" game.

As for the hard enrage debate. Double damage is not insta-wipe. As my HM team has geared up we have almost always hit enrages on some bosses and we still get the kills. I pop cooldowns and the healer just works real hard. We can't keep it up for long, but in our earlier days we've had to go 20 seconds before on bosses and still finished them with no deaths.

20 seconds of enrage, taking damage, and no deaths is definitely not a hard enrage.

Thelongroad's Avatar


Thelongroad
01.01.2012 , 04:39 AM | #22
bring good ranged dps - and you wont have this problem
Such pride in your failure as a man.

Shadowcatra's Avatar


Shadowcatra
01.01.2012 , 04:55 AM | #23
Hard enrages are simply a dps check. If you wipe, then you are missing some dps somewhere. Either a CDs miss used or a little bit more dmg from everyone. Either way it is saying that you are undergeared or just barely there. It is not lazy, it is a player checking system.

A soft enrage on the other hand is not overly interesting, but can be on WoW fights like ICC's Prof. Putricide where the goo fills the room till it overwelms ppl. It adds a feeling of a rushed kill or a "oh **** we need to kill him fast or we will die" type of game play.

Both are fine, it is just the frequency of use is massive atm because of the devs trying to feel out the players.
Class- Juggernaut lvl 50 Server- Canderous Ordo Guild- Checkmate
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Trying to kill a level 50 Guardian/Juggernaught is like hitting a brick wall with a wet noodle.

The_Assuran's Avatar


The_Assuran
01.01.2012 , 06:00 AM | #24
I dunno, I like enrages, both hard and soft. As a DPS main, they tell me I need to do my job better.

Though, I can understand that without a combat log and some of the other UI issues TOR has, hard enrages are a bit trickier.

Absolvus's Avatar


Absolvus
01.01.2012 , 09:14 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by BassDeluxe View Post
I think they need a little more time before we should say that they're being unimaginative. I think at this stage they're getting a feel for what the community is capable of. I think future raids will bring more interesting fights. Or at least, if Bioware knows what's best for the success of their game, they will.
I'd say this.

First tier in new MMO *needs* to be relatively simple.

And I don't personally have anything against enrage timers, especially hard. (they are basically the same thing except you put more pressure on tanks and healers in soft timers which imo sucks) They are there to tell your dps that this is the time limit and if your dps isn't up to par then you don't deserve the loot. This is how it should be, there is absolutely no need for handhelding for dps players. They need to do their part too.
In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

Sythrasz's Avatar


Sythrasz
01.01.2012 , 09:20 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Absolvus View Post
I'd say this.

First tier in new MMO *needs* to be relatively simple.

And I don't personally have anything against enrage timers, especially hard. (they are basically the same thing except you put more pressure on tanks and healers in soft timers which imo sucks) They are there to tell your dps that this is the time limit and if your dps isn't up to par then you don't deserve the loot. This is how it should be, there is absolutely no need for handhelding for dps players. They need to do their part too.
What? Why shouldn't healers and tanks have interesting encounters, where they get pushed to the limit, too?

Absolvus's Avatar


Absolvus
01.01.2012 , 09:32 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Sythrasz View Post
What? Why shouldn't healers and tanks have interesting encounters, where they get pushed to the limit, too?
Actually you are correct. I was bit shortsighted when I wrote that. It is fun to have gradually harder and harder time dealing with boss.

So I guess both types of enrage could be used. But I still don't have anything against hard enrages, they serve their purpose and are pure dps gear check.

Of course there are more creative ways to do these kinds of things but I still think first tier of new MMO should be kept relatively simple and the difficulty curve should be build up from that with players (and the encounter designers too) gaining more experience.

I'm sure for the semi-professional raiding guilds moving from ie. current WoW raiding scene the simple design is jarring experience but these were not designed them in mind.
In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

Offended's Avatar


Offended
01.01.2012 , 09:53 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Absolvus View Post

I'm sure for the semi-professional raiding guilds moving from ie. current WoW raiding scene the simple design is jarring experience but these were not designed them in mind.

I highly doubt -any- semi professional raiding guild will move from wow to swtor. Why in gods name did they put in hard enrage timers without combat logs and a way to analyze the DPS done by a class.

It's a failure on the developers part. It's not the tanks fault for not doing enough threat or the dps for not doing enough dps or the healer for not healing.

It's a failure on bioware for thinking that WoW got it wrong and they can do it right.

Absolvus's Avatar


Absolvus
01.01.2012 , 10:22 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Offended View Post
I highly doubt -any- semi professional raiding guild will move from wow to swtor. Why in gods name did they put in hard enrage timers without combat logs and a way to analyze the DPS done by a class.

It's a failure on the developers part. It's not the tanks fault for not doing enough threat or the dps for not doing enough dps or the healer for not healing.

It's a failure on bioware for thinking that WoW got it wrong and they can do it right.
People have been killing bosses left and right before parsers and without them.

Not to say I don't want to see certain addons in-game, I do but it is tanks fault if he doesn't do enough threat even without threatmeter. And it's still dps fault if he goes overboard even if he doesn't have threatmeter.

And it's ridiculous to assume that you couldn't ween out good players without dps meters. You can. It's just arduous and time consuming since you have to actually play more than one fight with the person. But in case of healers and tanks it's really quite easy, just run a flashpoint or two with them. You'll know after that. Dps is bit harder to get the feel though. (I do want dps/hps/etc. meters, but not threatmeters)
In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

Korben-Dallas's Avatar


Korben-Dallas
01.26.2012 , 04:33 PM | #30
I was about to post about hard mode enrage timers but OP nailed it right on the head. The enrage timer is nothing but lazy programming pure and simple.

I rather get adds, fire pits spawning, turrets spawning... anything but a stupid enrage timer.

Very frustrating to our guild members that want to experience a HM for the 1st time and that we have to deny because of this...

Thank you OP for a good inisght on this pressing issue.