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Hard Enrages are beneath Bioware


Endilix's Avatar


Endilix
12.31.2011 , 04:36 PM | #11
Honestly, the purpose for enrages is a necessary evil. Yeah, it sucks getting 10 seconds away. I've been there so many times in so many MMOs that have hard enrages. But that just means we gotta step up our game and try again. Now sure, it may not be tuned very well yet, and that IS Bioware's fault. But when it is tuned and people are able to meet the timers in a challenging yet doable fashion, then it's not Bioware's fault. It's your group's fault.

It's not a lack of creativity. It's a matter of necessity to make sure that people don't just blast through content they shouldn't be doing. Hard modes are all about being able to survive AND push the max amount of damage, healing, and mitigation possible in a given fight. Sometimes that's adding more mechanics. Sometimes that 's a hard enrage. Sometimes, all it takes is making the boss hit harder. It's all about the fight, really.

BassDeluxe's Avatar


BassDeluxe
12.31.2011 , 04:41 PM | #12
I think they need a little more time before we should say that they're being unimaginative. I think at this stage they're getting a feel for what the community is capable of. I think future raids will bring more interesting fights. Or at least, if Bioware knows what's best for the success of their game, they will.

Sythrasz's Avatar


Sythrasz
12.31.2011 , 04:43 PM | #13
A lot of reading comprehension fail in this thread. The OP is not about enrages in general, but specifically hard enrages.

Arodin's Avatar


Arodin
12.31.2011 , 04:45 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Magdain View Post
What is the difference between a hard and soft enrage in terms of fight outcome? Both result in your raid wiping if you can't execute the fight quickly enough. Whether one is more creative (whatever arbitrary definition you have for creative in this context...) is irrelevant. Just because a mechanic isn't needlessly convoluted doesn't mean it is poor design.
I agree with this. A soft enrage is just a hard enrage that happens gradually. What difference does it make, really? Why is one more "creative" than the other?

I prefer a hard enrage personally because it provides a very specific time frame for DPS to do their job. When you have a soft enrage, it's harder to pinpoint exactly what went wrong when you wipe -- did too much time pass, or are the healers not keeping up with the gradual increase in damage, or is the tank not mitigating enough damage? Hitting a hard enrage states quite clearly that the DPS was too slow (assuming they're all still alive).

I'd wager most people who hate hard enrage timers are weak DPS players who like to blame their failure on healers.

Taral's Avatar


Taral
12.31.2011 , 04:48 PM | #15
Enrages period are a lazy way to make a fight "hard".
That's Bush.

Sythrasz's Avatar


Sythrasz
12.31.2011 , 05:10 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Arodin View Post
I agree with this. A soft enrage is just a hard enrage that happens gradually. What difference does it make, really? Why is one more "creative" than the other?

I prefer a hard enrage personally because it provides a very specific time frame for DPS to do their job. When you have a soft enrage, it's harder to pinpoint exactly what went wrong when you wipe -- did too much time pass, or are the healers not keeping up with the gradual increase in damage, or is the tank not mitigating enough damage? Hitting a hard enrage states quite clearly that the DPS was too slow (assuming they're all still alive).
I'd wager most people who hate soft enrages are weak theorycrafters who can't figure out how an encounter went.
I kid.

A soft enrage is better because it can be solved in more ways than "bring more deeps lol".

Draloch's Avatar


Draloch
12.31.2011 , 05:20 PM | #17
There are no hard enrages in any of the republic side HM flashpoints.

I actually like the enrages. I'm a tank and I have a real struggle with threat. The enrages (they are definitely all time based) require my dps to open up early and that, in turn, forces me to bring my "A" game to every fight. There are some fights where we'd have prefered a more conservative strategy (like the implant guy in Maelstrom), but we just can't afford it because of the enrage timer. I have to do my very best job at building threat to enable dps.

I think it's very good and seems balanced in a very fair, but difficult way.

Lord_Itharius's Avatar


Lord_Itharius
12.31.2011 , 05:35 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Magdain View Post
You know the definition of hard enrage, but you don't know how it applies to the game? There are very few hard enrages - They just get a damage buff, and many times I've been able to heal our group through the enrage.
That's a hard enrage. It's when the boss gains a massive damage boost after a certain amount of time. A soft enrage would be something like Chimeran in WoW: Cataclysm - everyone becomes unhealable in the last phase. It's still a dps race, but it's much more imaginative than if Blizzard were to just stick a timer on him that caused him to instantly explode the raid, like many of the hard enrages in SWTOR.

That said, I'm fine with hard enrages, so long as we're given periodic warnings of the time remaining and we have combat logs and UI mods. If Bioware doesn't want people to rely on mods like DBM and Recount to WoW, they should remove hard enrages.
"can you make sword in box light sword so sword come out when opened? then if sword is back after sword, use light saber on box, and saber will be boxed after sword is out." - battlebug

Lord_Itharius's Avatar


Lord_Itharius
12.31.2011 , 05:38 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Draloch View Post
There are no hard enrages in any of the republic side HM flashpoints.

I actually like the enrages. I'm a tank and I have a real struggle with threat. The enrages (they are definitely all time based) require my dps to open up early and that, in turn, forces me to bring my "A" game to every fight. There are some fights where we'd have prefered a more conservative strategy (like the implant guy in Maelstrom), but we just can't afford it because of the enrage timer. I have to do my very best job at building threat to enable dps.

I think it's very good and seems balanced in a very fair, but difficult way.
You're simply wrong. I don't know how else to put it. Look at the enemy buffs next time you do a hard mode instance.
"can you make sword in box light sword so sword come out when opened? then if sword is back after sword, use light saber on box, and saber will be boxed after sword is out." - battlebug

Nellise's Avatar


Nellise
12.31.2011 , 05:52 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Draloch View Post
There are no hard enrages in any of the republic side HM flashpoints.

I actually like the enrages. I'm a tank and I have a real struggle with threat. The enrages (they are definitely all time based) require my dps to open up early and that, in turn, forces me to bring my "A" game to every fight. There are some fights where we'd have prefered a more conservative strategy (like the implant guy in Maelstrom), but we just can't afford it because of the enrage timer. I have to do my very best job at building threat to enable dps.

I think it's very good and seems balanced in a very fair, but difficult way.
Here's what happened in my group. The tank's threat wasn't very good, so I couldn't go full dps and we hit the enrage on every boss (I was pulling even with guard on me). We had to quit the instance because we couldn't get past one boss with a very hard enrage. The tank couldn't tell easily he was losing aggro since there's no meters or even target of target so never knew when to taunt and I'd die if I went full out. There wasn't anything we were doing wrong, we just couldn't hit the dps number (we weren't even particularly close like within a tank cooldown).

When it's all about dps and there's no way to evaluate your dps, what are you supposed to do?