Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Light/dark conflict with reality

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Light/dark conflict with reality

DarthAsphyx's Avatar


DarthAsphyx
12.31.2011 , 03:05 AM | #11
Well, I think it has been said in Revenge of the Sith: "Jedi are selfless, they only care about others. The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inwards, only about themselves." And don't forget, killing when someone attacks you is different from killing cold-bloodedly as the Sith do.

Karkais's Avatar


Karkais
12.31.2011 , 03:11 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by abishe View Post
oke, so i play a sith, i am a good guy for the empire.
I do anything that have the best interest in the empire.

yet, the class story getting in conflict of good/bad.
killing a other jedi, to preserves the empire best interest, leads me to dark side.
tell me, soldiers killing daily for their good of their country, to them it's the right cause.
so it's for me, sith to protect the empire against it's enemy, and help it's citizens.

the idea, was good but it's human nature is to complex to put it, in a 1, 2 choose.
at least what you can do is chance the limited chooises into more logic dark/light bonus.

for spoilers reason i not post any story line, but those of close to closeing Act 1.
knows what i talking about.
Yeah, but the force doesn't look things from just your viewpoint. If you serve a dictatorship that does bad things, you are bad yourself. For you to do good deeds, they would have to be independent from the empire, like helping war refugees etc.

Quote: Originally Posted by abishe View Post
and thats exectly where they have failed, the empire story line is not writen from their prespective, but from human's point of view.

from a sith prespective.
showing Mercy is Evil, while killing someone is good (especaily if they failed)
simple example

You sound confused. To show mercy is not 'evil', it is weak for a Sith. Good and evil (rather light side and dark side) in the galaxy are a measure thats independent from a person's point of view. Neither Sith nor the Jedi do things in order to be 'good' or 'evil', both do things they perceive as right.
"Their strength became my own. Their minds became my own. All flesh is my flesh. None move, save I will it. This is the rule the Sith were promised, and I have made it real!"
- From the codex of Karness Muur

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
12.31.2011 , 03:22 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by abishe View Post
oke, so i play a sith, i am a good guy for the empire.
I do anything that have the best interest in the empire.

yet, the class story getting in conflict of good/bad.
killing a other jedi, to preserves the empire best interest, leads me to dark side.
tell me, soldiers killing daily for their good of their country, to them it's the right cause.
so it's for me, sith to protect the empire against it's enemy, and help it's citizens.

the idea, was good but it's human nature is to complex to put it, in a 1, 2 choose.
at least what you can do is chance the limited chooises into more logic dark/light bonus.

for spoilers reason i not post any story line, but those of close to closeing Act 1.
knows what i talking about.
The force isn't about your mindset. It's about the greater whole. Rolepllaying your Sith you would do these dark choices from how you spoke of him. Your sith can't see dark and light gain. Your sith would do what he feels is right and not realize what he's doing is dark. In Star Wars you can do what you truly believe is right but be on the path to the dark side. That's why so many fall.

abishe's Avatar


abishe
12.31.2011 , 03:35 AM | #14
still it fails on all fronts.

minor spoiler
example their is a quest about a person thats "brainwashed"
you treath to kill anyone if she do not come's with you, (DS points)
but yet you do this to save that person (good)

now on a more realistic picture, their are people that do Euthanasie
when they have a serious illness (alzheimer) i not gonna lecture about it's nature.
but it clearly shows, being brainwashed or lossing you'r mind is a greater evil.


just 1 of the examples with is clearly not thought out of the writer

Karkais's Avatar


Karkais
12.31.2011 , 03:43 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by abishe View Post
still it fails on all fronts.

minor spoiler
example their is a quest about a person thats "brainwashed"
you treath to kill anyone if she do not come's with you, (DS points)
but yet you do this to save that person (good)
"Everyone"(?) sounds like more than just "someone", so I guess it comes down to numbers.
Saving a person is lesser important than preserving life (light side).

Also, dark side and light side should not be just about evil/good, although I admit that so far in TOR the dialog options seem to be bit fixed about that. I havent yet found any ambivalent situations that had more in-depth explanations as to why its dark or light side. On my sith inquisitor storyline, vast majority if not all dialog options Ive found so far that lead to dark side could be perceived as stereotypically evil. I hope theres more to it.

ps. I had a dialog option as smuggler where I merely threatened an unarmed person, and imo it wasnt even all that great a threat "You give me those things or Ill MAKE you give me those things", and ding! dark side points. I mean that was mighty low threshold for DS points imo? Ok, if its perceived as threatening to kill (which isnt mentioned in the dialog) then I would understand it.
"Their strength became my own. Their minds became my own. All flesh is my flesh. None move, save I will it. This is the rule the Sith were promised, and I have made it real!"
- From the codex of Karness Muur

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
12.31.2011 , 03:52 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by abishe View Post
still it fails on all fronts.

minor spoiler
example their is a quest about a person thats "brainwashed"
you treath to kill anyone if she do not come's with you, (DS points)
but yet you do this to save that person (good)

now on a more realistic picture, their are people that do Euthanasie
when they have a serious illness (alzheimer) i not gonna lecture about it's nature.
but it clearly shows, being brainwashed or lossing you'r mind is a greater evil.


just 1 of the examples with is clearly not thought out of the writer
Again you use human morals. In Star Wars euthanizing someone with alzheimers would be dark. Now here's what most people don't realize. In Star Wars comitting a single dark act DOESN'T condemn you. In Star Wars lore I'm sure even most jedi commit a dark act here and there. The thing is they make far more "light choices." look at Anakin. He committed quite a few dark acts before being "condemned."

If I recall in that quest line she went willingly. It was her choice. She wasn't forced to do the ritual. By forcing her to return you are removing her choice. She wished to remain there. She was happy. The force exists as a whole. It's not always clear cut. Sometimes it's the will of the force for someone to die. This was something anakin refused to accept which is what led him down the dark path.

Those insect creatures are just as much as part of the force as the noble families. The noble families waged war on them. They have just as much of a right to live as anyone else. If she is happy among them that is her choice. They weren't keeping her hostage, she wasn't fighting you, and she knew enough about her former self to send you back.

ArmchairMagpie's Avatar


ArmchairMagpie
12.31.2011 , 04:01 AM | #17
Best way to put it: It is your motivation which counts.

A Sith's motivation is to slaughter and spread fear out of his personal desire, that is the right path for him/her, sparing someone even if he didn't have to means he/she gets corrupted. Thus the natural attunement is Dark side whereas Light is the path of corruption.

A Jedi's motivation is to serve and protect out of his personal desire, that is the right path for him/her, not sparing someone even if he could do so means he/she gets corrupted. Thus the natural attunement is Light side wheras Dark is the path of corruption.

Also by relativist model your own deeds towards your superiors is irrelevant in this matter, because your superiors may have nefarious goals and you happily doing their job for them for the good of the citizens ruled by them does make you a loyal patriot at best, a mindless lapdog at worst. If you start thinking outside the box and you start defying the rules then that's where a higher compass kicks in.

It's no different than alignments in traditional RPGs. Whether someone is evil or good is independant from his profession, there are shades however because someone may be evil out sadistic pleasure, someone else might be evil because it's his way to enforce the rules but he would feel no pleasure about it, someone may kill *anyone*, the other one only those capable of defending themselves and fighting at equal level at least.

abishe's Avatar


abishe
12.31.2011 , 04:15 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
Again you use human morals. In Star Wars euthanizing someone with alzheimers would be dark. Now here's what most people don't realize. In Star Wars comitting a single dark act DOESN'T condemn you. In Star Wars lore I'm sure even most jedi commit a dark act here and there. The thing is they make far more "light choices." look at Anakin. He committed quite a few dark acts before being "condemned."

If I recall in that quest line she went willingly. It was her choice. She wasn't forced to do the ritual. By forcing her to return you are removing her choice. She wished to remain there. She was happy. The force exists as a whole. It's not always clear cut. Sometimes it's the will of the force for someone to die. This was something anakin refused to accept which is what led him down the dark path.

Those insect creatures are just as much as part of the force as the noble families. The noble families waged war on them. They have just as much of a right to live as anyone else. If she is happy among them that is her choice. They weren't keeping her hostage, she wasn't fighting you, and she knew enough about her former self to send you back.
doing a dark or light deed do condemn you a lot more then most consider 100 points in ether direction is -200 towards a focus. (game style) that's 1/5 of tier one.

also, this insect creatures can be compared to borg, as captain janeway explains 7 of 9
that a sane individual never will join a collective out of free will, and so doing forced her to be restrained under house arrest. (which is logical and right course of action)

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
12.31.2011 , 04:25 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by abishe View Post
doing a dark or light deed do condemn you a lot more then most consider 100 points in ether direction is -200 towards a focus. (game style) that's 1/5 of tier one.

also, this insect creatures can be compared to borg, as captain janeway explains 7 of 9
that a sane individual never will join a collective out of free will, and so doing forced her to be restrained under house arrest. (which is logical and right course of action)
From a story perspective that doesn't condemn you. One dark choice doesn't make you a bad person from a lore perspective. It's about playing the character you choose. Someone who is light V or Dark V are completely devoted to the light/dark. These people, in reality, are a rarity. Your character can fall anywhere on the spectrum.

Light/Dark gear is extremely rare. There's very few pieces and most end game gear has no dark or light requirements. It's mostly cosmetic.