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The Sniper/Gunslinger Issues Thread

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
The Sniper/Gunslinger Issues Thread

archifikoss's Avatar


archifikoss
01.01.2012 , 05:31 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Rawr_Bomb View Post
I've just started playing the game, and I must say I really don't like the cover mechanic at all. It feels really clunky and hard to control. I think it needs to go away to make this a far funner class.

Or at least, let us take cover for defensive purposes, but dont' require our abilities to have cover to operate.
I haven't reached high levels yet and generally restrict myself to questing - but I love the concept of cover, it actually gives the class a dynamic feel. I hope it's never removed - though maybe it could be reworked in some ways I guess if it suffers in competitive play.

Karast's Avatar


Karast
01.01.2012 , 06:04 PM | #12
+1

You make a lot of good valid points.

For PvP though I think the biggest issue we have with the cover system is simply the fact that every class in the game regardless of spec has ranged CC, even the melee have ranged CC. So even if you do get a good cover spot once your counter CC immunity ability fades you will simply be CC'd out of cover constantly, which cuts off your access to many of your key dps and CC abilities.

When you add this to the fact that your immobile while using cover your highly prone to being separated from your group, which leads you to being picked off by stealth classes.

The main problem we have is that you cannot wait in cover for melee to get to you, you have to move ahead of them and stay close to your group if you want to survive and that simply works against the cover system. Stationary classes do not work in a pvp situation. Mobility is key, and its one of the reason 60-90% of every warzone is comprised of classes with OP run speed increases. If you stay in cover you'll either get CC'd from range or the enemy melee will reach you and you will die. If you play without using cover you lose access to a lot of your key dps and CC abilities, and the system just is not responsive enough to try to constant move and redeploy cover.

Skouros's Avatar


Skouros
01.01.2012 , 11:02 PM | #13
First I would like to say you did bring up some valid concerns some of which I agree with completely.

But second, and more importantly, you should know that much of what you said sounds like whiny ******** to me.

I'm a sniper, I leveled Marks spec and have never respecced, not once. I have PVPed in every warzone, in open world, and in PVP areas. I've run flashpoints, several hard modes even, and will be running my first Operation tomorrow.

Quote: Originally Posted by stealthrider View Post
The purpose of this thread is to highlight and detail the numerous issues with the Sniper and Gunslinger classes, with the conclusion that these classes are badly designed and need to be reworked in order to be up-to-par with other classes in terms of playability, team utility, solo friendliness and PvP viability (both solo and in premade teams).
We are up to par, and in some areas surpass other classes and AC's with ease. The class does not need to be reworked AT ALL. It may need some bug fixes and, as you state later in this thread, quality of life fixes - those are far from a complete rework. I think this is an absurd goal to set with this thread that has such good information within it.

Ability Delay
I disagree that this is worse for us than others. I do think its a major problem that they're probably already working hard to fix. I'm sure I can live with it for a while yet, it doesn't keep me from doing my best and kicking ***.

Entrench (and Gunsligner equivalent) Not Consistent
Agreed. It is inconsistent, and this should be one of the priorities for fixing the class. I'm still not sure this is SO huge an issue though that you're arguing to rework the class for it. Certainly if things were working perfectly we'd be happy with the mechanic as is.

"Cannot See Target"

Line of sight is part of the class. We have huge range, and we have longer cast times and huge damage. It's a trade, one I make willingly. There ARE bugs with this, but fixed there is no problem with cover, as I have already said.

A large number of bugs deserve being fixed, not ignored or reworked.

Class/Planet Story Quests (30+); Post-Cutscene Battles

I completely agree with you on this subject. The class has the hardest time 30+ with solo quests, our companions have issues (major issues). Despite this we CAN level, and with the proper amount of force, we can do so while even further behind. I have proven this myself by leveling under level in many zones (Hoth+ I was 1-2 levels behind EVERY quest!). I fought orange level elites for my entire time on Corellia nearly.

Ground-Targeted AoEs, and the Elites that Love them

We're not built to deal with these well. Fortunately, entering cover is cheap and very rewarding, so we can just move and drop back into cover again.

That said, you seem to have missed the issue where cover sometimes refuses to allow us to enter it mid-combat. That bug is the only thing related to this that I find problematic currently, and I can live with a few bugs.

Base Defenses/Armor Level/Fragile CCs

I see no issues with these things. We're balanced around our defenses with our higher damage output. We're squishy glass cannons, maybe, but we're completely capable of crushing an enemy if they are not careful.

I ran into a Trooper in Ilum PVP zone the other night. I was with friends but they did not arrive in time. The Trooper brought me to about 10% health while he had only been beaten down to about 50%. I proceeded to drop the last 50% of his health in seconds, winning with a mere 80 health left (less than 1%).

Don't underestimate the power of panicked Snipe Spam.

Cover

Cover and the abilities tied to it are a fantastic part of our arsenal. Its laughable that you'd consider us less desirable than other classes BECAUSE of cover. Really? I can TANK some ranged targets. I provide emergency CC's and damage reductions. My cover pulse protects our healer, other DPS, and provides excellent utility overall (need I mention the final encounter in the Flashpoint "The False Emperor"?)

I don't know about you, but the fact that I output both high DPS (arguably highest) and provide excellent utility makes my guild mates want me in their group most.

We ran Hard Mode TFE earlier tonight. We had 2 wipes total I think? Smoothest run they've had to date. Not even mentioning our no-wipe quick clear of HM-BT.

Huttball

Snipers provide excellent damage in a warzone where most other classes are concerned with movement, healing, and movement. We aren't great ball carriers, we don't have much to do but put out damage, but that does not make us useless here.

I don't know about you, but I am a force to be reckoned with in Huttball.

Voidstar

Ah, voidstar. The map has plenty of open areas, and it has very specific areas where enemies focus on (two per section to be precise). There are plenty of opportunities to do what we do best here: open up a can of whoop ***.

On offense we're so-so. On defense, we're the kings of the battlefield. I'm disagreeing with you in general here.

Alderaan

Positioning is the key here. There are good places to be, and bad places to be. If you're out of position you're dead. That's just how it is. If you're in good position and have support, as you say, you're going to do very well. I'd call this neutral.

General PvP Issues

I completely disagree. 1v1 we're in excellent shape, not a guaranteed win but with skill and proper play we can hold our own against any AC.

Most of the abilities you complain about are extremely useful. I mean for christ sake, you whine about Ballistic Shield?

Lets say worst case scenario you get to use it ONLY for yourself, and ONLY for 6 seconds while being DPSed before you must run.

Thats 6 seconds of 20% damage reduction. That's fantastic.

You don't have to be able to use the entire duration of the ability to make it worth using. It's also fantastic for the initial rush into combat in ANY warzone, and ANY PVP area, when with teammates. Nothing wrong with this ability AT ALL.

Quality of Life Issues

Boo hoo. Shield probe? I don't care what it absorbs, just that it DOES absorb it. It keeps me alive for .05 seconds longer, so be it. I'll use it.

I completely agree about Scorpio's weapons, she needs access to electrostaff and vibroswords as well. I don't see why this isn't true for many other companions as well. Why limit it so much?

Quote:
1) Damage Advantage (if it exists) does not make up for the massive hit to survivability this class suffers compared to others.
It does some, you can't discount it completely.

Quote:
2) Cover is unreliable in tough encounters, making the class extremely frustrating to solo and the least viable Flashpoint/Operation DPS.
Frustrating, but also rewarding. Other classes can run around freely, blasting away, la-di-da. They look at us using this "clunky" mechanic and easily dropping targets at twice the pace they are and they are in awe. You tell me what that means. I'm just that good? Or maybe it's not as much of a hindrance as you claim.

Quote:
3) Line of Sight and Ability Delay bugs make the class unplayable in certain instances and extremely frustrating in others.
You're way over exaggerating this. We're fine, we work just fine in every instance. There are bugs, and they need to be fixed, but the AC is fine.


---

We're performing fine in all areas of the game. You're taking a few bugs and issues the class has (and they ALL have some, we're not alone here) and blowing them way out of proportion.

I wish you luck. If you just can't handle it I suggest you level something else, maybe one of the perfected bug-less classes you're sure exist. Pick something that doesn't fit with the term "clunky" and whos bugs are only helpful.

*cackle*
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stealthrider's Avatar


stealthrider
01.02.2012 , 03:57 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Skouros View Post

---

We're performing fine in all areas of the game. You're taking a few bugs and issues the class has (and they ALL have some, we're not alone here) and blowing them way out of proportion.

I wish you luck. If you just can't handle it I suggest you level something else, maybe one of the perfected bug-less classes you're sure exist. Pick something that doesn't fit with the term "clunky" and whos bugs are only helpful.

*cackle*
The problem is, we don't know how much mroe damage we deal compared to other DPS specced classes. There's no combat parser/log.

What we do know is that Bioware intended full DPS classes to deal 5-15% more DPS than hybrid specs, which does not seem to make up for all of the inherent defensive weaknesses of Snipers compared to other DPS-specced classes.

Once the combat log is in, we'll see the truth of the matter.
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Farrisen's Avatar


Farrisen
01.02.2012 , 04:03 AM | #15
Wait what?

Only problems ive encounterd :
Aimed Shot bug (that's why i no longer use static cover)

Charged shot not "charging" ie, the sound and activation bar is showing, but the skill is never used.

Otherwise, Easy as hell to level, pvp is phun as well

(lvl 50 Gunslinger)

And on the AOE note, JUST MOVE

ganacas's Avatar


ganacas
01.02.2012 , 06:48 AM | #16
Sounds like some serouis L2P issues to me gunslingers and snipers do serouis damage used right, and they have good cc to whats the problem here?

Stranden's Avatar


Stranden
01.02.2012 , 06:51 AM | #17
Also small things that are annoying. If you go into cover and get ballistic dampeners, then feel misplaced and go up and replace yourself, you lose the buff and dont gain it until after 6 seconds. I understand why this mechanic is in, but maybe we should get the buff back if we didnt use any of the charges? It is the talent that gives 3 charges of 20% reduction of damage. We also lose the instant snipe talent if we go out of cover.

Smoke Screen: For all classes this gives a 45% reduction, but for snipers and gunslingers, this is almost as an effective stun that last for ages, since we cant do anything useful while it is up. Sure i have the ability myself, but im mostly thinking pve now, cause i got annoyed by mobs that tossed them out whereever i stood and disabled me, combind that with fire bombs and drones and i have to move constantly. :P

Oh yeah, regarding range and damage, I would like to see my damage output from 35 meter as well. No numbers showing up!

Level 50 sniper here.

Gformutorila's Avatar


Gformutorila
01.02.2012 , 08:18 AM | #18
While I am only a level 24 sniper I can agree with many things the OP posts. My main beef is with cover. When I target a mob and press the go to cover button I sometimes end up with my back towards the mob or not in line of sight with the mob. I find that highly annoying.

And the ballistic damping could be reworked I think. I think this should be reworked so that it is also active while moving. Snipers could use a more defensive skill like that.
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SandTrout's Avatar


SandTrout
01.02.2012 , 05:13 PM | #19
Lvl 47 Sniper here, and I've learned to work around most of these issues, but they are all extremely valid points.

IMO, the issues with cover are the most severe hindrance to the AC's performance. Going into 'true' cover is far more detrimental than beneficial due to channeled abilities(read: 75% of our damage) being randomly interrupted.

Being forced to rely on portable cover is the primary cause of the loss of survivabilitly for snipers, considering that we do have some talents that can make us fairly resilient when in full cover.
Nerf not, lest ye be nerfed.

Grelgen's Avatar


Grelgen
01.02.2012 , 06:24 PM | #20
Agree with most in the thread. Just hit level 16 and I've experienced everything the OP has mentioned (cept the PVP parts). I also agree with most about moving when aoes target your location.

The two major fixes that would solve 90% of my faults with the class would be:
1. remove static cover 100%, make the defense screen a base ability. That way, you just crouch where you stand, instead of trying to live through a 10 second roll animation that puts you in the middle of the group you were trying to sneak up on.

2. Add target of target (or focus) to the UI. I cant click through all the jedi to find my target.

ideas:
1. make cover reduce aoe damage. debuffs associated like being set on fire can still go through, but reduce the explosion bit.
2. make companion abilities with some idea of how the class works. Having a dood pull a mob behind you so he can "tank it" is just dumb.