Last night, Nightmares Asylum downed Nightmare Mode Bonethrasher - which we believe is a world first. Videos will be posted soon.

The fact that any guild is doing nightmare mode content already is a bad sign for the overall success of this MMO. NA has been around for a very long time, and I can remember back WoW where people couldn't kill half the stuff in MC for months. It held much greater meaning to down ragnaros, domo, c'thun, nef, etc then any encounter in TOR... this worries me.

We have most people in our guild running around in full epics after a few weeks of play. Seriously, how is this game going to last? Hardmode/Nightmare mode should at least be hard... and we shouldn't see guilds clearing this already. (btw most of us can't even do EV this week because of a lockout bug. Thanks bioware)

I for one also think that these hard enrage timers are making content lack the overall epic feel that they should have. I watch old WoW videos from 1.0 and TBC, and all the fights - especially the final encounters, feel epic. I have yet to have that same feeling I did when we downed rag, nef, c'thun, lich king, etc for the first time.

It's not just the content being super easy that bothers us, it's that customer support doesn't help at all in this game. As a guild we've sent in close to 15 tickets, and none of them have ever been solved. We've been so bold as to ask "so we're just screwed then" and we get the answer of "yes, you are". That's great CS right there.

I would hope some of the other guilds that are clearing content quickly will join us in what we're saying, that content is too easy, and the the devs will hear this and make the next content patch more difficult. Otherwise, I foresee this games lasting appeal quickly diminishing.

Nice work guys!

Yea it seems a lot of these fights aren't very melee friendly but I'm used to that by now

This encounter is still highly bugged btw. After we wiped we had to send our tank in first alone to move him away before the rest of the raid could zone in. Otherwise he'd just swipe everyone at zone in and they'd all die.

(I thought they said in the patch notes they fixed him. hmmmmmmm)

Sorry bro, Irae AoD has killed every boss except Soa on Nightmare.

And that was because of a bug that made him unkillable. Now that it's been fixed, I'm sure they've killed him too.

that same feeling I did when we downed rag, nef, c'thun, lich king, etc for the first time.

No Kael'Thas? That was by far the most satisfying kill I ever got. Him and Vash'j.

That feeling is caused by two things

1. The knowledge that the fight is very difficult and very few people have completed it other than you.

2. Failure. Without failure, success is meaningless.

It's not just the content being super easy that bothers us, it's that customer support doesn't help at all in this game. As a guild we've sent in close to 15 tickets, and none of them have ever been solved. We've been so bold as to ask "so we're just screwed then" and we get the answer of "yes, you are". That's great CS right there.

When one of the most prolific guilds in WoW history is getting this sort of response to major raiding issues, you need to step back and take stock of how your GM team is handling the game.

Don't worry though, I'm sure the fanboy collective will chase these high-profile raiding guilds right out of your game and back to WoW, while other raiding-centric players will take one look, say "why bother" and leave you with a player base that will quit the moment they hit 50 on one toon.

Here is my question. Did a lot of your guild play in Beta? 'World Firsts' and titles of that nature are such a load of poppy **** because not everyone starts at ground zero on a release. I mean great for the people that rushed through levaling (spacing along the way because they 'knew' the fastest way)

Oh and in many MMO's there are guilds sponsored and paid to do the content.

For the average MMO player... they enjoy the VO and the content. And can also be excellent players that don't need to rush encounters.

And I agree with the person that said an MMO will never be the same again.

If BW made these ecounters like Vanilla WoW you would have a lot of casual players quit because they can not accomplish the fight (so to the 1% of gamers out there that want to be elitist) Good for you. Take you 'victories' and keep em on your own forums.

I have every faith that BW will make some kick-*** expansions and learn from what is happening now.

Honestly there is no way that any game will make everyone 100% happy. Adapt and deal or quit the game and take the negativity with you.

No, we didn't raid in the beta.

I love the 1% reply. I'm pretty sure that WoW subscription numbers continued to increase month to month while a lot of people couldn't progress through all of MC. Plus I think your logic is a little flawed. Far more then 1% could raid, it just took them longer to clear the zone.

There are three difficultly levels in TOR. I would think and hope that in time nightmare mode provides more of a challenge. That way those that enjoy the progression race have something, and the people that don't enjoy can still experience the instance.

That wasn't flawed. My 1% comment was to people acting elitist. (for titles and whatnot)

I am well aware that anyone can and do raid.

I hate bringing WoW up in the Star Wars forum because I honestly believe the two are totally apples and oranges and I only cited Wow since the person prior to my post mentioned this particular MMO.

But I guess I should use one last with WoW as an example (which I personally played since the beginning):

It took a lot longer for most of the population to even grind to 60. Plus you had 40 people that you took into an encounter (which means about 10 plus players statistically were less then average gamers who got carried aka bodies that pressed one spell as in the case of old school mages)

There is nothing wrong with being excited about defeating encounters as a guild. It's what the game is meant for if you choose to end-game raid.

But I personally will never agree that world firsts can be calculated in a system where there are advantages to a select few and it does not start on equal footing. (but i guess that is life)

Also... I don't want to read a post in which said people who have defeated this encounter then proceed to bash the game about content... when clearly the developers are always creating new content... its just a matter of rushing content out that is *craptastic* or now being able to judge live and fixing the content based on constructive comments. Not whinning about Hard modes being Easy.

Honestly there is no way that any game will make everyone 100% happy. Adapt and deal or quit the game and take the negativity with you.

Except that these players are the ones who will continue to subscribe via progression in raid content while the rest of the player base quits after leveling a few characters to 50 and moving on to the next big game. These are the types of players that Bioware should be bending over backwards to help, because they are going to make up their bottom line once the hype has died down.

To the OP:

The problem is not that the content is nessecarily too easy, its that players in top guilds are too good.

These "pro" raiding guilds are so analytical with their builds and settups that NOTHING short of unbeatable will hold them back from completions. Why complain that stuff is too easy when you make it easy by being good?

I havent experienced the raids myself, so i cant say exactly why you think its easy, but im sure there are plenty of challanging game mechanics that will stump normal gamers for possibly 8 months to a year. Normal gamers are what this game was made for.

Last night, Nightmares Asylum downed Nightmare Mode Bonethrasher - which we believe is a world first. Videos will be posted soon.

 

The fact that any guild is doing nightmare mode content already is a bad sign for the overall success of this MMO. NA has been around for a very long time, and I can remember back WoW where people couldn't kill half the stuff in MC for months. It held much greater meaning to down ragnaros, domo, c'thun, nef, etc then any encounter in TOR... this worries me.

 

We have most people in our guild running around in full epics after a few weeks of play. Seriously, how is this game going to last? Hardmode/Nightmare mode should at least be hard... and we shouldn't see guilds clearing this already. (btw most of us can't even do EV this week because of a lockout bug. Thanks bioware)

 

I for one also think that these hard enrage timers are making content lack the overall epic feel that they should have. I watch old WoW videos from 1.0 and TBC, and all the fights - especially the final encounters, feel epic. I have yet to have that same feeling I did when we downed rag, nef, c'thun, lich king, etc for the first time.

 

It's not just the content being super easy that bothers us, it's that customer support doesn't help at all in this game. As a guild we've sent in close to 15 tickets, and none of them have ever been solved. We've been so bold as to ask "so we're just screwed then" and we get the answer of "yes, you are". That's great CS right there.

 

I would hope some of the other guilds that are clearing content quickly will join us in what we're saying, that content is too easy, and the the devs will hear this and make the next content patch more difficult. Otherwise, I foresee this games lasting appeal quickly diminishing.

We agree the content is easy and riddled with bugs. The end game content clearly was never play tested with any guild near the top end of the spectrum and as such the game will suffer for it.

Our guild is also wandering around in full epics and people are wondering what is next now. There isn't much to do other then nightmare mode which is again either buggy or not worth talking about its so easy. I wish I could say all guild clearing content felt the same but it has been made clear some have even gone so far as to call fights revolutionary.

We stand with you and hope that the next content patch brings truly difficult encounters beyond just gear check and actually adds some difficult mechanics. We as well hope all guilds clearing content join us and NA in bringing attention to these problems.

Just a quick question...

If there are lockouts in raids and the game has only been out ~2weeks, how are entire guilds in full epics? Are you talking full raid gear or full normal instance gear?

The problem is not that the content is nessecarily too easy, its that players in top guilds are too good.

I'm flattered.

i remember the reason ppl couldnt down things in WoW in the first month was because the encounters where severly bugged and were not possible. SO GREAT COMPARISON.

seriously grats none the less.

also power gamers whose life choices allow them to get to 50 in 2weeks run hard instances to gear up in full purples, can complain all they want about not having enough content, also biowares mission statement for what sw:tor was going since it was announced, was a fully Voiced story driven casual mmorpg. should be happy there is endgame.

btw, even the new WoW content has been beating and that was in like 3weeks.

i do mean congrats on the kill(s) but just because you have enough free time to get this stuff done, is by no means a judgment on if this game is gonna sink or swim. because i know of no game that can give power gamers enough of a challenge. the old days of eq where you had to camp and grind and grind and grind and grind for 6months to get the last 5levels of the level cap are gone, and i dont think anyone truely misses it.

I think you need to check your facts before you make a post like that. WoW took months to do most of the 1.0 content, and TBC content. First Vashj kill took a while, as did Keal'Thas.

C'thun, Twin Emps, Nef, Val, Patchwerk, Lich King, Saph, 4 Horse Men, Rag = all WoW 1.0 bosses that took a while for anyone to down.

Vashj, Keal, Gruul, The blind dude in SSC, Illidan = all TBC encounters that took a while for people to down.

So don't say it was bugs that kept people.

C'thun, Twin Emps, Gruul

Vodka and 12p/Predestined had Twin Emps down on either the first or second week after Mannoroth gained entry to AQ40. Mannoroth being the second server to open the gates.

C'thun was virtually unkillable for over a month until a "fix this in a week or we're all quitting" post was made by someone in FoH(iirc, could be wrong). Blizzard hotfixed in a patch within the week and over 50 guilds killed him that evening.

Gruul was also virtually unkillable until Blizzard nerfed his shatter range. I believe the only guilds to kill Gruul pre-nerf were ones who managed to bug the encounter so he wouldn't shatter anymore.

I understand what you're trying to say, just don't use untrue examples .

I'm really dissatisfied with the encounter design in this game too, literally every fight is almost entirely non-threatening aside from a timed enrage. Space that **** out don't make it every goddamn fight.

It doesn't help that 2 encounters in EV are practically impossible to **** up and can't be classified as anything but minor inconviniences to get some easy loot/progress the instance.

It seems WoW and Rift will remain king for PvE encounter design unless Biowares encounter designers suddenly improve their skills ten fold.

i remember the reason ppl couldnt down things in WoW in the first month was because the encounters where severly bugged and were not possible. SO GREAT COMPARISON.

 

seriously grats none the less.

 

also power gamers whose life choices allow them to get to 50 in 2weeks run hard instances to gear up in full purples, can complain all they want about not having enough content, also biowares mission statement for what sw:tor was going since it was announced, was a fully Voiced story driven casual mmorpg. should be happy there is endgame.

 

btw, even the new WoW content has been beating and that was in like 3weeks.

 

i do mean congrats on the kill(s) but just because you have enough free time to get this stuff done, is by no means a judgment on if this game is gonna sink or swim. because i know of no game that can give power gamers enough of a challenge. the old days of eq where you had to camp and grind and grind and grind and grind for 6months to get the last 5levels of the level cap are gone, and i dont think anyone truely misses it.

3 weeks when players are already max level and geared up, vs people basically going in and clearing nightmare on their first day at 50.

3 weeks when players are already max level and geared up, vs people basically going in and clearing nightmare on their first day at 50.

1kill on nightmare is now basically clearing it, along with ppl now also farming hard modes and 2weeks of regular and hard mode kills now equal first day of fifty. fine manipulate what you want. i wont miss the power levelers after the 30day mark at all. forums will be cleaner.

Gruul was also virtually unkillable until Blizzard nerfed his shatter range. I believe the only guilds to kill Gruul pre-nerf were ones who managed to bug the encounter so he wouldn't shatter anymore.

 

I understand what you're trying to say, just don't use untrue examples .

And don't spread further misinformation if you want to not appear to be an idiot. Gruul was very killable before he was nerfed. The 'exploit' you refer to was invul potions allowing people to cheese the shatter.

Speaking as someone who killed Gruul before he was nerfed and after the invul pots were fixed, you are wrong and thus using untrue examples.

In regards to the general thread:

1. This discussion is relevant because Bioware has chosen to spend resources on raiding dungeons, and will continue to do so (see the teaser). Therefore it is relevant to discuss raiding design.

2. Bad raid design affects more than the top tier raiders. Therefore the discussion is relevant if BW wants the raiders to hang around, which they evidently do given their continuation of raid content creation.

3. A point somewhat overlooked by the trolls: hard enrages are generally inferior to soft enrages in terms of design elegance. If people other than the top tier raiders need to stack raids to win because of DPS checks at every corner, then they will just quit. If they don't need to stack the raid, then they overgear the encounter and will quit because theres nothing to do.

1kill on nightmare is now basically clearing it, along with ppl now also farming hard modes and 2weeks of regular and hard mode kills now equal first day of fifty. fine manipulate what you want. i wont miss the power levelers after the 30day mark at all. forums will be cleaner.

Irae AoD is 4/5 EV Nightmare. Since we're both talking about the absolute top guilds, yeah...

Even WOTLK Naxxramas had deeper encounter design than what we have here in SWTOR. Hard modes are 99% just extra hp, damage and a less forgiving enrage, and the base encounters are not interesting or paticulary challenging, OTHER THAN the Enrage timer.

Soa is an obvious exception, but 1 fun and well thought out encounter out of 6 is not good enough.