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Make Mirror classes actual mirrors

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Make Mirror classes actual mirrors

Kellindell's Avatar

12.29.2011 , 10:44 AM | #1
So I have decided under some suggestion to redo this post to make it look more professional and concise. I was advised to leave my opinion out of it as well, but I dont see that happening as this is a very sore issue for me, and as the 70 + pages have proven with most of the republic, and alot of the PvP community.

So what is this thread about?
This thread is not about class balance, which is a huge problem (tracer missile with a sprinkling of backstab spam anyone?) in and of itself. But that is expected of any game. Several people will and have made the argument "Oh do you want to make every class the same?" that is not the place for that.

Fact is, this game has 8 classes, not 16. That is a fact, made so by the fact that each mirror class (Trooper/BH, Smuggler/IA etc..) shared a forum in beta. When test phases went through, it was for Trooper/BH, not for trooper or BH separately. If you are not familiar with the term, that makes BH and Trooper "Mirror" classes of each other.

Mirror meaning logistically they are targeted to be exactly the same, their only differences are meant to be their faction, ship, story line, armor look and ability animations.

In one of the final beta pushes Bioware streamlined all the abilities and talents to make them exactly the same, or rather they attempted too, which is the problem here. So please dont try to argue this isnt so. It is so. Their are 8 classes in this game, mirrors of each other. Targeted in design to be exactly the same, except that design failed either by accident, or with purpose. We cannot know, we can only speculate that it was on purpose based on the high amount of evidence pointing towards it, and the silence of the developers.

What exactly is the problem then?

The problem is that because bioware put so much into the combat animations, it created a discrepancy within the mirrors of each class. Meaning, some animations give an advantage over its mirror ability. IE Project VS shock, tracer missile VS gravity round etc...

Now before you state that this isnt problem, think about this as well as reading on. These are supposed to be exactly the same. This isnt the difference between a 2.5 second cast ability that does high damage VS a 1.5 second ability that does light damage. This is differences in abilities that are INTENDED to be exactly the same.

In simpler terms, think about any generic fantasy MMO that has two factions that share the same classes. Now imagine if for some reason for Faction A fireball does 300 damage, and for faction B fireball does 200 damage but in every single way the mage class, and fireball is exactly the same, and on top of that faction B doesnt have an ability that one ups faction A.

Is this really a big deal?
Yes, regardless of how little the difference is, or whether or not its sprinkled evenly amongst the classes and factions, it creates an imbalance in a system built upon the foundation that everything is supposed to be the same to create fairness and equality.

Its an even bigger deal because every single advantage goes to the Sith.

Not one of the discrepancies favors the Republic.

What else is going on?
Their are some other problems that add to this. Other advantages the sith empire gets, or more polish on their gear and class quests, abilities that work more accurately, or mirrored companions (yes companions are mirrored as well for each class. IE Khem Val = Qyzen Fes) that work better. The consensus seems to be that Sith story arcs are better, and more specifically the romance arcs have more depth. Normally even I would rule this under conjecture, but the overwhelming number of posts about this from both sith and republic alike lets me feel good about mentioning it here.

Also, their are some more cold hard facts going on in PvP situations that give Sith advantages that are not class specific, we will touch on those later in the post.

Why is the silence so bad? Devs have alot on their plate.

Its true, they do. But problems similar to this have happened in games, and silence was the answers from the development team and the PvP community died, and subscriptions dropped like flies. This created underpopulated servers or servers with MASSIVE population imbalances essentially making them unplayable for PvP, causing even more loss in subscriptions.

Also in a more simple light, it just creates a very bad relationship between the creators of the game and its player base, which should not be the intended goal of said developers.

It also lends more to the theory that this is all purposeful. Right now the consensus (based off thousands of forum posts and threads) is that Sith Empire is favored. Devs admitted pre launch they would be playing Sith, Sith have much more polish, and all these invisible advantages granted to them. Add the silence of the developers, and it just creates an all around bad blood situation amongst the players.
These issues were pointed out time and time again in BETA and were ignored, and the result was the Sith greatly outnumbering the republic on PvP servers, which has led to several other problems such as bad open world situations, imbalance in Illum etc...

We just want a response, no matter what that response is. But despite the overwhelming number of threads like this one, all we hear is bittersweet silence.

Are these problems exclusive to PvP?
Nope. This will effect raiding, questing and anything that involves using your abilities. Make no mistake about it, you are at a disadvantage the other side of the population does not have. Not to mention the story and polish issues that cannot be "measured" or proven conclusively. We can only look at the overwhelming trends.

Following is the list of all the discovered problems.

Non class specific

-Turrets in Alderaan fire faster for Sith then they do for the republic.
Video proof

Go into a match yourself, its plain as day. When the sith turn a control point it instantly fires shaving shields off the republic. It takes the republic turrets a really long time to graphically turn towards the ship and fire. But for some reason, non neutral turrets being turned from Rep to Sith still instantly start ticking points away even though graphically they have to turn and fire.
So for some reason, the republic animation makes republic lose time towards shooting the enemy ship, but sith guns fire instantly.

-Purple Lightsabers are easier for sith to obtain.

Purple lightsabers according to the Devs themselves are suppossed to be the hardest to obtain. They have even commented in threads about this subject. Yet all a sith has to do is get to level 50 and buy a PvP lightsaber and the crystal within is purple. So the most coveted light saber color by fans, and from the word of the devs themselves the "rarest" is insanely difficult for a republic play to gain, but so simple for a sith to gain.

-Sith Story lines are better/more polished

Granted this may be "opinion" but the amount of people who have this opinion is overwhelming.

-Fleet VS Fleet

Class Differences

Smuggler/ Imperial Agent

-Smuggler Dirty Kick roots the smuggler in place when it is used, the Imperial Agent mirror Debilitate does not root you in place making it more versatile in PvP which requires mobility.
Running and jumping does not fix this issue, you still get rooted mid air and fall to the ground, you do not use RL physics and travel through the opponent. Not that it matters, one class shouldnt need to use work arounds to be equal with their mirror.

-The smuggler Sab Charge has a very long animation and travel time to get onto the opponent where the IA explosive probe drops down instantly. This allows for quicker and more controlled burst from the IA, as well as tying up less time into an animation that could be used doing other things.

The animation of back blast takes much longer to happen, which much like Sab charge ties the smuggler up in an animation, which also means the damage is not applied as quickly giving the opponent more time to react, or use a heal or defensive cooldown. The IA version is a very quick and instant knife stab.

-Operative Hot injector graphic stays with the player, the scoundrel HoT does not. This allows a player to monitor their heals on large groups simply by looking at them, where as a scoundrel has to click on them and look at their buffs, find his heal and see if it needs to be reapplied. That sort of searching in PvP can lose fights.

Rifle VS dual pistols

Quote: Originally Posted by PlagaNerezza View Post

25/12/2011 , 16h23

Envoyé par Viikuna
But our off-hand also does have only 67% special hit and 57% "normal" attack hit.

off-hand: 67 hits out of 100 = 5226-9849 dmg
maind-hand: 100 hits out of 100 = 26000-49000 dmg
total: 31226-58849 dmg
sniper: 100 hits out of 100 = 40000-50000 dmg

So gunslingers min dmg is ~22% lower than snipers, and max dmg ~16% higher than snipers.

ure right except make that a 75% with bolster
also put into consideration that sniper anything over 100 aim is all armor penetration unlike gunslinger which the off hand does not get that

There main weapon hits harder than ours
There main weapon gets AP with Aim over 100
There off-hand dmg totals can be Bolstered thus giving them full mathmatical superiority.

I didn't get into the animation issues.

You can find more but the balance is garbage. Just let me use the higher stat higher dps main weapon with ap.

Bounty Hunter/Trooper

-Bounty hunters have more resource then troopers do. The math shows that due to the amount of heat and the cost of abilities shows that bounty hunters technically have more resource. What this means is, if you converted BH heat to the troopers Ammo, the BH would have more actual Ammo then a trooper when they are both full.

Here is some of that math provided by a thread follower.

Quote: Originally Posted by GitRDone
You forgot about another difference between Bounty Hunters and Troopers.

Vent Heat gives 50 Heat, which equals 50/16 = 3.125 Flame Bursts.

Recharge Cells gives 6 Ammo, which equals 6/2 = 3 Ion Pulses.

-Death from Above (BH) applies its damage faster then Mortar Volley.
This make Mortar volley "miss" alot in PvP because people arent where they were standing when you started, or they see the blue circle on the ground and run out of the way since they know they have plenty of time to do just that. Once you see the red circle as Republic, you are already taking damage.
This also affects PvE when fighting things that move who often get out of the way of mortar volley, or are dead from group mates before mortar volley ever even ticked.

Video proof

-The trooper full auto is inferior to the bounty hunters unload. Here is why.

Full Auto loses casting time if you're hit during the channel, Unload doesn't. If you're hit even once, you'll do one less tick of damage, which is a significant hit to the overall damage the ability does.

It's a pretty huge difference IMO, and actually makes FA much less useful in PVE as well (as long as you're taking any damage at all).

-Tracer Missile Spam> Gravity Round spam. This is mainly due to the above heat VS ammo issue, but it bears being mentioned on its own because of the enormous imbalance of BHs spamming tracer missile mindlessly in PvP and taking down opponents using one ability that does massive damage, has auto facing and is viable to be spammed because of the larger resource pool BHs have.

Quote: Originally Posted by greviouz View Post
This IS DFA when channeled -----
this is MV when channeled -----

red shows no dmg beeing done while green shows dmg beeing done
MV is heavily bugged as it takes 2 full bloody seconds for the animation to run trough witch a normal pvp'er can easily avoid because the blue republic logo is on the ground for 2 full secs before the dmg is applied
this is Unload : -------

while this is Full Auto : -------

green shows dmg

because of animation/getting shot at Full auto 80% of the time looses 1 tick of damage
i will admit sometimes full auto hits 3 times but its about every 4th to 8th time you use full auto

this has been tested out intensly on both my merc BH(lvl 50) and my Gunnery Commando( lvl 50) Both have the indentical spec
Inquisitor and Consular

-Project has a travel time to do damage to its target where Shock does not.

Video Proof

Some will argue this gives the Consular an advantage. It doesnt. In several instances where you want on demand damage, its simply inferior. Trying to kill someone before crossing the goal in huttball, killing someone casting a heal, killing someone on the run trying to gain line of sight etc... Instant on demand damage will always win.
That being said, it doesnt matter if both abilities become like shock, or both become like project, they are supposed to be the same and they are not,

**If you shock a Operative/Scoundrel or Assassin/Shadow while they are restealthing it will pull them out. But if a project is in mid air and they stealth or vanish, it will not.

Go to around 3:13 you will see a Consular start a project up and the operative never even enters combat and uses vanish, the operative just uses normal restealth and the project does nothing.

If that was an SI using shock, they would have prevented the IA from restealthing.

Quote: Originally Posted by Raja_Asenn View Post
Assassins get a purple swirl visual effect when Exploit Weakness procs, Shadows don't get a visual effect when Find Weakness procs.

It's a big deal. Looking for a tiny green icon with a lightsaber on it in a sea of other tiny green icons with a lightsaber on it is painful.

Knight and Warrior

-Jedi Guardian Freezing Force lasts 6 seconds, while its Juggernaut Mirror lasts 9, no other difference in the ability. This is slated to be changed. Fixed in a patch.

-Jedi Knight Bladestorm requires an animation before applying its damage. The Sith Warrior Scream applies instantly.

Both charges from both classes do not require facing, people were saying the JK did and the SW did not, I logged in a JK myself and tested it, the JK did not have to face a target to charge it.

-The sentinel AoE mezmerize does not knock targets down, the Sith version does. This essentially gives the sith version an invisible advantage because it is harder to recover from.

Some Choice quotes from players to show this is not just me

Quote: Originally Posted by ururururu View Post
Every one of these bugs is in favor of empire. Considering the population imbalance, can we get some priority on getting these fixed?
Quote: Originally Posted by Dredlord View Post
I unsubbed after reading this, does every dev have a red sabre up their ***?

This many issues for only one faction does not happen by mistake...
Quote: Originally Posted by cloudxshadowbane View Post
Dont forget they spent WAY more time making their nice storylines and quests. Spent WAY more time making actually decent looking tier gear. etc

Quote: Originally Posted by Trushott View Post
I see the DEVS have decided to still remain silent on this matter ...


i mean did a few devs that decided they were going to play SITH / Empire really think they were smarter than the entire player base and we would never figure out all these small empire advantages all through out the "MIRROR ABILITIES" ( sure they are mirrors what a joke ) that add up ...
Quote: Originally Posted by oblongship View Post
I am really not sure if in the next 10 days I will be around with these GLARING issues and their lack of communication on them.

It's as if they say "Maybe if we say nothing the issue will just go away" well to an extent that may be true but along with the issue a good portion of the playerbase may follow.

When people had concerns I always stuck up for Bioware and said "Man they are an amazing company they wont let crap slide" all of those I said it to, I apologize I apparently out right lied.
Quote: Originally Posted by Izariel View Post
The devs are acting like the kid that was caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Its almost light these differences were intentional and they are now guiltily slinking away because they were caught.

There are blatant differences, and a lot of them. If there were one or two, fine- but there are tons.

We need an explanation for how this happened and also a quick fix to make them actual mirrors.
Quote: Originally Posted by Izariel View Post
These are all documented imbalances and "strangly" enough all favor the Imps. Roll that into the fact that Imps MASSIVELY outnumber Republics on pvp servers and you get a very bad combination.

Quote: Originally Posted by Magnesium View Post
I've always hated how Devs fail to acknowledge some problems and that just keeps to frustrate the player-base because they feel they are not being heard.

I always expected problems to exist, but in a game where classes are meant to be mirrors, I certainly would not have thought we see so many problems which favour the Imp.
Quote: Originally Posted by ururururu View Post
Every one of these bugs is in favor of empire. Considering the population imbalance, can we get some priority on getting these fixed?
Quote: Originally Posted by Jevanko View Post
+1 "mirrors" aren't mirrors.. Should really be fixed this is ridiculous.
Quote: Originally Posted by Torleen View Post
It is only more interesting if you are on the side who's "diversity" gives them a serious advantage across the board. And consistently the imperial classes have this.
Quote: Originally Posted by MethodSZ View Post
bump, would like to see the developer's excuse for this
Quote: Originally Posted by Aleeha View Post
Yeah and so? You want to force players to not be able to play the side they like? Face it, the story, the clothes, the abilities, the rides... Everything about Imps are > than Republic..

This is the way it's always been, this is the way it always will be..

Kellindell's Avatar

12.29.2011 , 04:17 PM | #2
Found out some more

IA flash bomb is 60 second CD, smuggler one is 90 seconds....

Smuggler Sab charge takes time to get to the target (like Project) IA version is just instant.

Kellindell's Avatar

12.29.2011 , 04:19 PM | #3
IA Stun doesnt stop forward movement.

Smuggler stun stops forward movement.

Rhinoplat's Avatar

12.29.2011 , 04:23 PM | #4
How about they just allow us to join a guild screw the faction perspective and allow guilds to PvP other guilds.

Actually I'm being serious, and then you don't have to worry about what Faction has what.

GeLopez's Avatar

12.29.2011 , 04:26 PM | #5
I didn't know about this. These are such amateur mistakes.
Lopez - Jedi Sage @ The Fatman

Connection's Avatar

12.29.2011 , 04:27 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhinoplat View Post
How about they just allow us to join a guild screw the faction perspective and allow guilds to PvP other guilds.

Actually I'm being serious, and then you don't have to worry about what Faction has what.
There already will be an MMO that does that, it's called Guild Wars 2. I suggest anyone who takes pvp even remotely seriously should just wait for it to release.
Death Digitalized

ozirizo's Avatar

12.29.2011 , 04:29 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Connection View Post
There already will be an MMO that does that, it's called Guild Wars 2. I suggest anyone who takes pvp even remotely seriously should just wait for it to release.
Yeah yeah, and the moment GW2 is released it will be full of whine threads, just like every new mmo release.

Old story.
Clio Martell / Jedi Sage / Eros Martell / Commando / Ahto City

Crowbarx's Avatar

12.29.2011 , 04:30 PM | #8
Ummm I'm not sure you read the talents for each class but the differences you're talking about can be spec'd into for each side. They are true mirrors, check the talent tree's and you'll see you have pvp talents to do these things to your skills like stop forward movement or reduce cooldowns.

Shadowclaimer's Avatar

12.29.2011 , 04:32 PM | #9
This isn't a guild wars thread, its a TOR thread, keep it on subject people.

And the OP is right, perfect mirrors. I do recall there being a moderator post awhile back about a slight difference (think it was a cooldown) on an IA/Smuggler ability that was different and they said they were supposed to be perfectly mirrored, so maybe it was just an oversight in this regard?

Regardless, it all needs to be perfectly mirrored for RvR to be competitive. Warhammer failed this miserably (Hello Bright Wizards), don't make the same mistake again.
Brigade Commander Bravak Stukov of the Republic Assault Corps
Join the RAC today and save the galaxy from Empire scum!

Bahll's Avatar

12.29.2011 , 04:35 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Kellindell View Post
Found out some more

IA flash bomb is 60 second CD, smuggler one is 90 seconds....

Smuggler Sab charge takes time to get to the target (like Project) IA version is just instant.
So you have stated that they are not mirrors, and then you have pointed out that the smugs ability is on a longer cd......then you go on to say how the diff in CD makes up for the abilities. Are you just looking for stuff to cry about?

Most PvPers would take a shorter CD anyday for a move that does a similar effect.

True mirrors would homogenize the game. I like the diversity and I hope they keep it.

Edit: While true mirrors would make balancing the game far less complicated, I dont want to be a IA/Smuggler...i just want to be an IA.
It may be your $15/month, but its the raids $225/month