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Character Appearance should not require effort

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Crew Skills
Character Appearance should not require effort

Enako's Avatar


Enako
12.30.2011 , 04:24 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Ohoni View Post
It often comes up in discussions about orange gear that it works well because you can, in theory, acquire any look you like, provided that you "work hard enough to achieve it." .
no it shouldnt.

'achievement' is a certain preference in gameplay. not everyone's taste fit the same.

there is no mandatory rule that says there should be 'effort' and 'achievement' in games. no, there isnt. otherwise there wouldnt be entire game genres ranging from simulation to sandboxes.

'effort/achievement' is just the preference of a certain small demographic in progressive hardcore mmo gaming. namely the pinnacle of this is wow. actually everquest was much more hardcore in that regard, but for some reason, these 'effort' people are not preferring to play it. i wonder why. maybe it requires too much 'effort' ...

Drebble's Avatar


Drebble
12.30.2011 , 04:37 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Enako View Post
no it shouldnt.

'achievement' is a certain preference in gameplay. not everyone's taste fit the same.

there is no mandatory rule that says there should be 'effort' and 'achievement' in games. no, there isnt. otherwise there wouldnt be entire game genres ranging from simulation to sandboxes.

'effort/achievement' is just the preference of a certain small demographic in progressive hardcore mmo gaming. namely the pinnacle of this is wow. actually everquest was much more hardcore in that regard, but for some reason, these 'effort' people are not preferring to play it. i wonder why. maybe it requires too much 'effort' ...
You are of course right, we should all be level 50, have all companions, a dozen speeders and all titles and gear in the game as soon as we log in. I mean who want to put in 'effort' in a game? The tiny hardcore MMO demographic that wants reward to require effort should go play some kind of MMO instead of SWTOR.

Darzil's Avatar


Darzil
12.30.2011 , 04:41 AM | #23
I think I like this system. I liked LOTRO's appearance system, but to make it work for PvP, it was just disabled there (people like to know what they are fighting). Here with PvP able to happen in many places, that isn't an option. So you are left with either having armour that protects as it looks, or not. They've chosen the former, and this seems to work.

What I really want is someone to put together a good armour appearance site, so I can see what everything looks like! Unfortunately I don't have the time to do that for this as well as LOTRO.

Korialstrazs's Avatar


Korialstrazs
12.30.2011 , 04:49 AM | #24
I'm all for an appearance tab, I fully support this because I hate orange armor.
"I've yet to face anything I can't overcome"

ColonelKer-Nal's Avatar


ColonelKer-Nal
12.30.2011 , 05:07 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Ohoni View Post
At least yours were individually coordinated. I have a screenshot of my Elara wearing all the best pieces I had available at the time, which meant that she had a yellow helmet, a blue chest, green pants, and red boots.
Ohh! Lucky Charms armor! I'll bet she was magically delicious!!
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
~Robert A. Heinlein

Ohoni's Avatar


Ohoni
12.30.2011 , 06:42 AM | #26
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You'll have to forgive the reference, but that reminds me of my characters in WoW shortly after I got my first greens way back in BC O.o
Yeah, there are a lot of elements of SWtOR's design that remind me of archaic MMOs that I used to play, and this is certainly one of them. I suspect that a lot of the defenders of the current status quo are immigrants from these relics, and have some form of Stockholm Syndrome.

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For me, getting and maintaining my appearance is just more game content to me - a sort of extra set of quests with rewards that suit me 100%, and with no map markers telling me exactly how to do. I probably enjoy gear-hunting as much (or even more) than other game content.
I fully support everyone's right to make a game of any element they choose, I just don't think that Bioware should be supporting this practice, and that the majority of players would be happier with more convenient customization than those that find the current model to be "fun." Bare in mind, there would still be exploration elements to the system, as you would not be able to use a look unless you could find at least one copy of it, so you might still have to farm a certain mob or track down a rare recipe or something. DCUO, the system I reference as having a good customization system, has plenty of rare and sought after "styles," as they call them.

It even broadens the options, as it effectively makes EVERY piece of gear in the game an "orange piece", so when you do find the piece you want, you can use it from that point on, rather than having to discard it once the stats make it obsolete!

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If an appearance tab is going to be implemented (which I hope not), I would prefer that they went all the way - a system that lets everyone pick appearance items freely from all armor pieces in the game, including endgame operations loot. The <i>only</i> limit would be that your character must have the relevant skill ("Heavy Armor" etc).
I think that goes too far. I think that there is value in the progression, that if someone does choose to wear one or more high level pieces, you can acknowledge their progress, and that there is some fun to be had in finding that rare piece of gear. I think that, at the very most, they should just allow for a selection of 3-5 different base outfits at creation, much like you can do when you get your first companion with their wardrobe, and nothing would be available that wouldn't be available already by level 5 or so, mostly just different colored versions of the same style.

Of course, ideally we'd have full pallet control as well, which would make that latter bit moot (at the very least being able to rotate colors around the pallet).

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After all, if your appearance is not what you are wearing, then there really is no point connecting the two at all. Why half *** it, when it can be truly effortless?
I wouldn't actually mind if they completely disconnected the two, which I agree would be simpler, and would actually be much more in tune with the license (given that there is no "gear progression" in Star Wars). While as I said I think that there should be some form of "style progression", in which new styles become available as a result of drops, missions, crafting, etc., and there should certainly be stat progression as you level via similar means, they wouldn't have to be linked up, they could go to a model in which you more get direct mods slotted directly onto your person, offering the same benefits gear brings now, but not being attacked to a specific pair of pants or whatever.

Champions Online does this, having six "gear" slots that do not directly correspond to any specific body part, and while some do unlock costume pieces, this is largely an arbitrary process. So SWtOR could go that route, rewarding both "gear" that raises stats, and "costumes" that allow you to change your appearance, but not necessarily linking the two.

That sounds like a massive overhaul though, a complete change to all the gear in the game that would not be undertaken likely. Adding something like "appearance override slots" would be a fairly minor UI modification that a good 2-3 guys could bang out in a week or less, and a full DCUO system would probably not be that much harder to implement. Given the difference in workload, I think adding the latter systems should be the short term priority, but they can consider your plan for the long term.

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I would assume orange gear has base stats with this in mind.
But not scalable or modifiable base stats. If they have the base stats to be balanced against a level 20 armor with an Armor Augment in, then they wouldn't even be close to balanced against a level 50 armor with an Augment in, and much less against one with a +Crit or something.

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Why not? I'm playing the devils advocate here (I don't want an appearance tab) but if you are going to have it why place restrictions on it? Why make it take effort to get the appearance you want?
and that's why the strawman arguments are so silly, they say "if one element has to be tricky, like leveling, then every little thing about the game should also be a pain in the ###." Well that's just not true, some things should be a challenge, and other things should be convenient. Doing group content should be a challenge, finding a group should be convenient. finding cool appearances can be difficult, but once found, switching between them without harming your performance should be easy.

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You are of course right, we should all be level 50, have all companions, a dozen speeders and all titles and gear in the game as soon as we log in.
"If I only had a brain. . ."

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I think I like this system. I liked LOTRO's appearance system, but to make it work for PvP, it was just disabled there (people like to know what they are fighting). Here with PvP able to happen in many places, that isn't an option. So you are left with either having armour that protects as it looks, or not. They've chosen the former, and this seems to work.
I reject the idea that you should need to be able to see other people's gear for PvP purposes, I mean you should be able to tell what class they are regardless of appearance, and besides orange gear already allows you to wear armor from other classes, like Gunslingers in full Jedi robes with peak performance. DCUO's PVP there is no way to tell what class or powerset the opponents have until they start attacking, and it seems to work out just fine.

But even if we do entertain the idea that it's important for PvP purposes, it's an easy enough fix. Just have it so that the appearance overrides don't work on opposing factions on PvP servers. While friendlies might see your Trooper as wearing the Guardian robes he thinks looks cool, to any opposing player he would just see whatever random collection of plate he's actually wearing. It shouldn't be a problem to do, since all that happens is the server sends a certain set of numbers telling your client what appearance model to display, all it needs to do is pull those numbers from column A when sending them to friendlies, and column B for any enemies.

In any case, PvE players should not be penalized because PvP players are too stupid to be able to fight a Trooper wearing robes.

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Ohh! Lucky Charms armor! I'll bet she was magically delicious!!
Always.

Raximillian's Avatar


Raximillian
12.30.2011 , 06:59 AM | #27
Pretty much the gear system in DCUO... Any piece of gear you picked up, the look would be added to the database, and then you could pick from it at will. While it did offer a lot of flexibility. it really did remove the value of the gear looks you acquired. If you have them available all the time, then after a while, it does not matter if they are there or not. That's my impression.

Grendel_Prime's Avatar


Grendel_Prime
12.30.2011 , 07:06 AM | #28
I'm a big fan of LOTRO's cosmetic tab and dyes. Having that much choice over the appearance of your character is a big thing for me (and judging by the AH prices on some purely cosmetic outfits, others as well). Even just an option to color the armor (within a limited spectrum) would be great, because man do I get tired of brown/lightbrown/beige/off-white/dark brown for my Jedi.

I wore the commedation piece for a good long while because it wasn't some member of the brown family

Eliezer's Avatar


Eliezer
12.30.2011 , 07:16 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Ohoni View Post

But not everything in the game deserves to have a value to it. It's like if you go to a restaurant, you expect that the meal itself will cost money, you expect that a nice drink will cost money. You expect that desert will cost money, but just getting water should be free, they should bring some bread to the table for free, using the bathroom should be free, etc. If they attach a price to every single thing, including a fee just to have a chair at the table, then that seems excessive.

Some things should have a cost associated, being able to change your appearance within the options you already have access to should not be one of those.
Except that in an MMO, appearance IS usually one of the most premium things available. Everyone wants to LOOK cool :-p

Blev's Avatar


Blev
12.30.2011 , 07:16 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by skitzafit View Post
the thing you are missing is that you should only look like the cloths you are wearing, and by making fully modifiable gear we are able to upgrade the gear with a look we prefer. As for the cost, it takes nothing to overwrite a mod only to pull them out. There really is not a reason to give you a DCU type wardrobe. It works in that game because superheroes/villains have a distinguishable look to them and it is a huge thing when they change looks in a the books so they kept it easy for you to feel the same in the game. BW has made it easy for you to maintain the look you want if you want to have a wardrobe then you need to put the work into maintaining it.
Actually it isn't especially when you start getting into the Heroic Flashpoint and Raid gear. With one of the recent builds, on Epic/Artifact (purple) items, they took out the ability to change around the Armoring slot. This becomes a problem with raid gear as it now requires all players to take that gear and look almost exactly the same because we can not pull the armoring mod out of the gear. This is kind of a big deal for tanks as the armoring mod is what gives us the armor rating on our gear.

I don't mind dropping 120k creds on pulling mods out as I have done recently, but without access to 136-140ish rated armoring mods, it's going to be extemely difficult to be able to maintain a specific look for raiding.
Blev - Jedi Guardian | Caladium - Sith Sorcerer | Ranwyn - Commando
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