So with no new operations and bringing all the Ops up to lv 65 will there also be new challenging mechanics with the old ops or will they just up the hp for the bosses and call it a day and say "we have new content"

Yes that is correct.

So with no new operations and bringing all the Ops up to lv 65 will there also be new challenging mechanics with the old ops or will they just up the hp for the bosses and call it a day and say "we have new content"

To be fair, all those scrubs who complained about the DPS check on underlurker will have nightmares with:

(I never did EV/KP/EC at level so i'll skip them)

Dread Guards

Operator IX (If they can't tell left from right I dread whats gonna happen when they have to go to the right spot at the right time when its colour coordinated)

The Terror From Beyond

Titan 6

Operations Chief

Cartel Warlords

Styrak

Draxus

Brontes

Tyrans

Raptus

Dread Council

So with no new operations and bringing all the Ops up to lv 65 will there also be new challenging mechanics with the old ops or will they just up the hp for the bosses and call it a day and say "we have new content"

We do not know that much about this but what they have said are that they are bringing all ops to level 65 to build a good foundation to continue develop content from there.

I think we will get different difficulty modes.

To be fair, all those scrubs who complained about the DPS check on underlurker will have nightmares with:

 

(I never did EV/KP/EC at level so i'll skip them)

 

Dread Guards

Operator IX (If they can't tell left from right I dread whats gonna happen when they have to go to the right spot at the right time when its colour coordinated)

The Terror From Beyond

 

Titan 6

Operations Chief

Cartel Warlords

Styrak

 

Draxus

Brontes

 

Tyrans

Raptus

Dread Council

SOA, fabricator, kephess

SOA, fabricator, kephess

cant forget pylons and infernal council

infernal council= Pug1 -"so your telling me i cant use any aoe's or group buffs during the fight?" Raid Leader - "that is correct". Pug1 *continues to use aoes and group buffs causing thousands of raid wipes*

To be fair, all those scrubs who complained about the DPS check on underlurker will have nightmares with:

 

(I never did EV/KP/EC at level so i'll skip them)

 

Dread Guards

Operator IX (If they can't tell left from right I dread whats gonna happen when they have to go to the right spot at the right time when its colour coordinated)

The Terror From Beyond

 

Titan 6

Operations Chief

Cartel Warlords

Styrak

 

Draxus

Brontes

 

Tyrans

Raptus

Dread Council

>inb4 Scrubs QQ New Ops are mean DPS checks while old Ops were all about mechanics and not DPS checks

Seriously pugging is going to get a lot worse

So with no new operations and bringing all the Ops up to lv 65 will there also be new challenging mechanics with the old ops or will they just up the hp for the bosses and call it a day and say "we have new content"

They are not adding anything new - they are simply scaling the enemies to level 65 and tuning the HP and damage and such against expected level 65 capabilities.

Maybe they will correct old bugs or glitches, maybe they will even 'clean up' the encounters to match changes made to combat over the years (interrupts / cleanse), but I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing much done unless there are major glaring issues.

How difficult these all become for the average pug will depend largely on how they tune them at 65.

If they expect the same level of relative performance at 65 as they did for 3.0 at 60, I wouldn't expect to complete most of the Ops with random pug groups for months.

At least not until they nerf a bunch of fights and players over-gear themselves through farming commendations or easy / early bosses.

Same with HM 65s - I imagine I'll be dropping group if instances like HM Lost Island pop up in a random GF pug as I'm not about to watch moron after moron get knocked off the monkey platform wiping the group, assuming they can even get past the droid.

... will there also be new challenging mechanics ...

HAHHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAhahahahahhahahahaHAHHAHAH!

NO! Where do u life ... perhaps u will be forced to take ur medpack ... dude where have u been the last years?

(I never did EV/KP/EC at level so i'll skip them)

At launch I clicked and was bad, didnt folllow theory crafting or fully understand procs and my classes or know how to optimize gear, and I cleared then farmed EV/KP NiM with titles in columi/Rakata mix as dps and heals. Maybe I was carried, but regardless it couldn't have been that difficult. No trouble with EC sm either.

Couldn't beat Kephess HM though, and stopped trying when TFB dropped at which point I switched to tank, and started my process of improving by studying stuff, keybinding, etc.

So, everything prior to EC HM souldn't be a problem based on my experience unless they overtune it compared to launch. At least from a dps/HPS standpoint.

At launch I clicked and was bad, didnt folllow theory crafting or fully understand procs and my classes or know how to optimize gear, and I cleared then farmed EV/KP NiM with titles in columi/Rakata mix as dps and heals. Maybe I was carried, but regardless it couldn't have been that difficult. No trouble with EC sm either.

 

Couldn't beat Kephess HM though, and stopped trying when TFB dropped at which point I switched to tank, and started my process of improving by studying stuff, keybinding, etc.

 

So, everything prior to EC HM souldn't be a problem based on my experience unless they overtune it compared to launch. At least from a dps/HPS standpoint.

KP and EV were never hard mechanically, nor super tuned from a dps / heal perspective, though there were a few 'gotcha' places like Soa and the combination of platforms, traps, balls, and tanking him under the pillars that could cause pugs to struggle.

But over time, the Operations have grown a bit more difficult and the tuning has definitely been increased, though the requirements for SM still seem fairly easy to meet.

One thing that I think may play a part is simply stat scaling - the difference between optimal and non-optimal with the options available at 50 were much closer than they are today - so non-optimized players were not as big of an issue back then.

Now we can add augments to every slot such that tuning assuming players have them makes players without a larger burden, coupled with the inane amount of high endurance crap for comm / bad players to use versus the optimized stats item.

Maybe someone has done the math - but I would assume a player in 186 optimized and augmented gear would perform significantly higher (>15%) than someone with 186 non-optimized high endurance gear without augments.

cant forget pylons and infernal council

 

infernal council= Pug1 -"so your telling me i cant use any aoe's or group buffs during the fight?" Raid Leader - "that is correct". Pug1 *continues to use aoes and group buffs causing thousands of raid wipes*

Oh how on earth could I forget ancient pylons. Its bad enough with Left/Right on underlurker. Now imagine it not always being the same D:

...

Maybe someone has done the math - but I would assume a player in 186 optimized and augmented gear would perform significantly higher (>15%) than someone with 186 non-optimized high endurance gear without augments.

It's almost certainly worse than even 15%.

I got my 190 gear, fully augmented, 186 relics. Then I started parsing and fixing my Accuracy. I got about a 20% damage increase from fixing my accuracy, a couple of 192 armorings and mods, and 1 198 armoring and mod. ( And a few datacrons, most notably the fleet. ) It was something like 3200 dps to 3900. Concealment op too, so simple rotation pretty much unchanged. ( 20% may seem like more than you would expect from the 10% miss chance, but remember that you're going from 90/100 to 100/110. That's 11.111% increase. Add in various procs and such, and it gets even worse. )

If you added in all the other ways someone can be behind par, then the gap is FAR worse today than it was back then. Heck, just look at HP for a rough guide ( since everything has it, it's a good quick guess ). I have frequently seen level 60s trying to do endgame content with 35kish HP. My Trooper had that much HP at 56 with simple basic comm mods.

SOA, fabricator, kephess

Infernal Council, Vorgath, Firebrand/Stormcaller, Gharj, Foreman Crusher are all vanilla dps checks.

It's almost certainly worse than even 15%.

 

I got my 190 gear, fully augmented, 186 relics. Then I started parsing and fixing my Accuracy. I got about a 20% damage increase from fixing my accuracy, a couple of 192 armorings and mods, and 1 198 armoring and mod. ( And a few datacrons, most notably the fleet. ) It was something like 3200 dps to 3900. Concealment op too, so simple rotation pretty much unchanged. ( 20% may seem like more than you would expect from the 10% miss chance, but remember that you're going from 90/100 to 100/110. That's 11.111% increase. Add in various procs and such, and it gets even worse. )

 

If you added in all the other ways someone can be behind par, then the gap is FAR worse today than it was back then. Heck, just look at HP for a rough guide ( since everything has it, it's a good quick guess ). I have frequently seen level 60s trying to do endgame content with 35kish HP. My Trooper had that much HP at 56 with simple basic comm mods.

Interesting observations about the performance gap between random 'here's some gear' stats and optimal.

HP isn't bad as a proxy - but that also leads to another big delta between optimal stats and whatever stats the gear has, given how much extra endurance are on things like commendation enhancements.

And I imagine the delta is what causes all the issues like getting Blood Hunt, pulling 4.0K as a dps, and still watching the boss enrage at 10% to one shot the tank, only to look over and notice the other dps barley has 40K buffed wearing random stat leveling junk.

Maybe they will better optimize gear at 65 and make some changes (like reducing the infernal amount of accuracy needed) that close the gap, as well as dial back the tuning.

Otherwise assuming scaling pushes the performance gap wider, and assuming similar tuning to 3.0, there is no way I am pugging anything in 4.0.

Oh how on earth could I forget ancient pylons. Its bad enough with Left/Right on underlurker. Now imagine it not always being the same D:

For that we got wonderfull calculators

I always find it funny / sad how people still can wipe on EV now a days because they don't click fast enough. This ofc is helped by the 'just bash all left crowd'

When seeing EV or KP I think I would dread Soa and the Operator droid (tower of Hanoi puzzle) the most when it comes to pugging. Partially because a lot of people won't have the patience to actually teach others the correct mechanics again.

How many people can tell me for example what each fire pylon does? Without looking it up. Lots of people have gone used to rolfstomping old content myself included. Time to treat the older opses with renewed respect

Personally I quite look forward to the changes. Should be fun to actually have a (small???) challenge again (or maybe not so small:rak_02:)

For that we got wonderfull calculators

I always find it funny / sad how people still can wipe on EV now a days because they don't click fast enough. This ofc is helped by the 'just bash all left crowd'

 

When seeing EV or KP I think I would dread Soa and the Operator droid (tower of Hanoi puzzle) the most when it comes to pugging. Partially because a lot of people won't have the patience to actually teach others the correct mechanics again.

 

How many people can tell me for example what each fire pylon does? Without looking it up. Lots of people have gone used to rolfstomping old content myself included. Time to treat the older opses with renewed respect

 

Personally I quite look forward to the changes. Should be fun to actually have a (small???) challenge again (or maybe not so small:rak_02:)

Thankfully they made that App for the pylons

Thankfully they made that App for the pylons

Pylons shows why static solution puzzles in raid content are usually a poor idea as once the community solves them, they become rather pointless as they no longer pose a challenge.

Sure - there will be plenty of pugs that will screw up and not even be able to follow a 'go all left' strategy on SM, but any group that is semi coordinated and has people with the solution / solution app will basically have a gimme fight.

And in general, I just dislike any fight that is more reliant on things like clicking panels than playing my actual character, similar to my disdain for vehicle type fights in other games.