I thaught about this recently, and I actually think the connection of the Emperor and Zildrog serves quite well to potentially "clean up" some of the plotholes around the Vitiate/Valkorion problem.

 

The way i like to think of it nowadays, is that Tenebrae, although extremely powerful, was just another Sith Lord. That changed when he found the ancient weapon on Nathema - he realized that he could use the device's power to acquire power beyond imagination, and eventually he did exactly that by using Zildrog to destroy Nathema and performing a ritual to use the deaths to become the being known as Vitiate.

 

Then the Great Hyperspace War happened, and he fled into darkspace with the survivors and rebuilt the Sith Empire. Being mortally afraid of death, he became obsessed with comsuming all life in the galaxy to become a god.

 

This changed however, when he found Zakuul, and found out about the "Machine Gods": he recognized the design from Zildrog, and it makes sense for him to be very interested in that, considering he basically was "created", using that very technology.

 

This would also explain his peace proposal in the Great Galactic War: he needed time to study that technology, and decided to devote most of his time on Zakuul.

 

Then JK happens, and his plans are foiled; he becomes incorporeal for a time, with only a fraction of his power remaining in "Valkorion". Eventually he consumes Ziost, and decides to abandon his initial plan to consume the galaxy in favour of his "Eternal Empire". Then KOTFE/KOTET happens, and we know the rest.

 

This is my personal headcanon at least, because it explains why Vitiate took such a sudden interest in Zakuul - the technology of Iokath "made" him, and he basically used the Scions of Zakuul to find out more about it.

 

There are still inconsistencies of course, because lets face it, KOTFE/KOTET are pretty weird from a storytelling perspective, but I feel the whole "Zildrog thing" is a try to at least have it make sense on some level, even if it is a bit of a stretch.

I actually see it quite differently. I think Tenebrae was obsessed with ultimate power from the start, the ritual on Nathema was merely his first step. Tenebrae is the kind of man, in my opinion, that doesn't care how he gets power as long as he does it. Why am I bringing this up you ask? Well because as powerful as the Sith may be they are a double-edge sword, they can very loyal sometimes but the Sith philosophy as a whole leaves room for people to try and rise above you provided they're powerful, or think they are, enough to defeat you and take your place in the hierarchy.

 

In that manner the Sith are extremely unreliable, Tenebrae had to purge the Council twice in recorded history due to them challenging his power. The first time it was open, the second it was a conspiracy. However the Knights of Zakuul and Zakuul as a whole see him as a guiding figure, unlike the Sith the Knights see the force as instrument of justice, a way to bring their Emperor's justice to the world. He essentially raises a society to not only view him as a leader but as a god, for all intents and purposes The Knights are far more loyal than the Sith could ever be, Zakuul itself is more grand in a way than the Empire. Valkorion provided for his citizens, a monthly allowance according to the codex entry. The Imperial Citizens might've seen him in a similar fashion, and even some Sith, but I think that for him the Sith were just unreliable as tools. Hence him creating a new Empire, where he is not only a leader but the figure that is central to their culture with an army of force-sensitives who are fanatically loyal and devoted to him and his will.

 

I'm honestly more curious as to how he found Zildrog, we know from the codex entry he used the scions' vision to find the fleet, which itself begs the question of whether or not the GEMINI hyperwave relay station was built by him or if he merely found it, so I wonder how he found ZIldrog originally as well as Zakuul itself, I suppose the fact Zakuul is told be to a neutral force nexus much like Odessen could be how he found the place. I'd also be curious as to the approach Tenebrae managed to turn Valkorion into his new voice, was Valkorion tempted by power? Was he believing he was doing the right thing for his people? Was he doing it all for himself? I would really like that period of Tenebrae's life to be explored.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but that wasn't my point - the main problem with Vitiate/Valkorion is the complete 180 he does after Ziost personality-wise. Until Ziost he is an Eldritch abomination, and then suddenly he becomes a way more "Luciferian" character - benevolent and wise on the outside, even though he still is evil of course.

 

If he planned to destroy the galaxy Zakuul doesn't make sense - nor does him having children and a family. However, if we assume that he initially took an interest in Zakuul because he found mentions of Zildrog, and similar technology, it is reasonable for him to focus his attention there.

 

It isn't because after Ziost that he abandons his plan to consume the galaxy though - He doen't have a choice really, considering he can't "use" the Sith for his plans anymore, as they openly defy him.

 

At that point he probably went "**** it, this new empire is better for me anyway. Thexan, Arcann, go kill stuff."

 

He DID try to do the same with the Sith remember - he wasted 20 years in wildspace so that the Sith would become completely dependant and loyal to him, but because they're Sith, it never worked to the same extent as on Zakuul, where he built the entire society from the ground up.

Maybe his plan was to destroy everything but Zakuul, the Eternal Empire would then go on to claim the galaxy and when he needed to he could do the same again.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but that wasn't my point - the main problem with Vitiate/Valkorion is the complete 180 he does after Ziost personality-wise. Until Ziost he is an Eldritch abomination, and then suddenly he becomes a way more "Luciferian" character - benevolent and wise on the outside, even though he still is evil of course.

 

If he planned to destroy the galaxy Zakuul doesn't make sense - nor does him having children and a family. However, if we assume that he initially took an interest in Zakuul because he found mentions of Zildrog, and similar technology, it is reasonable for him to focus his attention there.

 

It isn't because after Ziost that he abandons his plan to consume the galaxy though - He doen't have a choice really, considering he can't "use" the Sith for his plans anymore, as they openly defy him.

 

At that point he probably went "**** it, this new empire is better for me anyway. Thexan, Arcann, go kill stuff."

 

He DID try to do the same with the Sith remember - he wasted 20 years in wildspace so that the Sith would become completely dependant and loyal to him, but because they're Sith, it never worked to the same extent as on Zakuul, where he built the entire society from the ground up.

 

I always saw that as his attempting to manipulate you to be honest, the change in personality and all that. He is still very much the same core, he's just attempting a different approach now.

I cannot speak for him having children, perhaps he desired to use them as voices since Valkorion's body does seem to age from what we've seen in the sacrifice trailer. Charles' post about why Tenebrae did what he did and how is very fascinating, even if I think this type of information should've been at KOTET as they had promised us as opposed to leaving the codex entry vague as to what his endgame was.

Yes, and that was the first generation of Sith. But as I've stated in my post, it's in the very philosophy of the Sith to rise above their master provided they're more powerful. To quote Shaak Tii "The Sith always betray each other". After centuries the Sith would likely not have the reference that first generation had, which opened room for the first time which the Dark Council openly defied Tenebrae. They were all killed. Tenebrae as Charles himself puts it on his post, sees the Sith Order as a failed ideology, a dead-end for him.

I didn't actually know that post, nice

 

Basically, Vitiate just wants to play god, which we already knew i guess.

 

I just thought it super interesting that we find out that his power comes, to no small part, from Zildrog - which is the EXACT same tech used in the eternal fleet and the machine gods!

It is no contradiction, it simply adds another layer to his character.

I didn't actually know that post, nice

 

Basically, Vitiate just wants to play god, which we already knew i guess.

 

I just thought it super interesting that we find out that his power comes, to no small part, from Zildrog - which is the EXACT same tech used in the eternal fleet and the machine gods!

It is no contradiction, it simply adds another layer to his character.

 

Yeah, unfortunately the thread in which Charles replied got deleted so even if you search the dev tracker I don't think you'll find it. Luckily for us lore nerds Dulfy has a copy saved on her site!

 

I'll be honest, at first I was disappointed about that retcon. But when I thought of it, we never knew that much about the ritual. So for all we knew during the Revan novel Nyriss could've been lying about it or omitting details, or perhaps and IMO this this the likely scenario she merely didn't knew the full story. I honestly hope that Charles doesn't break his promise of "Explaining it" how Tenebrae even got Zildrog in the first place. Honestly it's things like this that makes me wish they would release a Tenebrae novel, it would allow them to explore all aspects of his life and finally settle long-standing questions.

 

I also wonder if due to Zildrog Tenebrae was even aware of the Machine Gods or of Iokath, it would be really something I'd like to be explained to us.

The peace proposal at the moment of certain Sith triumph was already explained as Revan figuring out how to use Vitiate's psychic connection with him to reverse his mental assault and influence Vitiate into believing that ending the war would be in his best interests. Darth Malgus and many other Sith were perplexed as to why the Emperor would command a treaty when they could have just crushed the Republic and crippled the Jedi in no time after the Sacking of Coruscant, and they were correct to be suspicious. If Revan hadn't been clever enough to pull telepathic judo throws on Vitiate's mind control efforts, he would have just conquered the known Galaxy outright with no hope of stopping him.

 

The whole Eternal Empire story arc introduced more complications to the lore than it answered questions and sent the overall narrative swerving into a wild direction that none of the legacy of writers penning the TOR era would have ever thought about doing. It's all like putting a sniper scope on a pistol. Sure it technically works just fine but it's still unnecessary and not very useful.

The problem I've had was exactly how Zakuul was tested, and what that has to do with Nathema and Zildrog. We know the Iokath builders "tested" their penultimate design on Zakuul. This was at least the Eternal Fleet and the droid-gods. We know that the Iokath builders' civil war involved the use of the droid gods as well, one side used the droids against the side that ignited the gas inside the pneumatic tube system. Yet Zildrog and its Gravestone perplex me. Was the Gravestone capable of acting independently to neutralize the Eternal Fleet during the testing, as is implied by Koth's retelling of the myth in KOTFE Ch. 4, or was it manned by Iokath builders to keep the fleet in check, or was Zildrog commanding it? The last option seems to be the least likely considering Zildrog's hunger to consume. And why would the builders need the machine gods as a superweapon if they had Zildrog hanging out on Nathema? And since Vitiate used Zildrog to consume life on Nathema long before Naga Saddow started the great hyperspace war, wouldn't the builders know their device had been used? Is it possible that Vitiate used Iokath technology to build Zildrog and somehow it was imbued with Vitiate's personality resulting in it simply thinking it had consumed Nathema, when in fact it was Vitiate and his ritual? The Gravestone executes via superior weaponry... Vitiate executes by consuming life, as he did on Ziost, and we are certainly led to believe he did the same on Nathema until the Nathema flashpoint. I'm not sure I've ever really accepted Charles' explanation for Zildrog and Vitiate's use of it.

The problem I've had was exactly how Zakuul was tested, and what that has to do with Nathema and Zildrog. We know the Iokath builders "tested" their penultimate design on Zakuul. This was at least the Eternal Fleet and the droid-gods. We know that the Iokath builders' civil war involved the use of the droid gods as well, one side used the droids against the side that ignited the gas inside the pneumatic tube system. Yet Zildrog and its Gravestone perplex me. Was the Gravestone capable of acting independently to neutralize the Eternal Fleet during the testing, as is implied by Koth's retelling of the myth in KOTFE Ch. 4, or was it manned by Iokath builders to keep the fleet in check, or was Zildrog commanding it? The last option seems to be the least likely considering Zildrog's hunger to consume. And why would the builders need the machine gods as a superweapon if they had Zildrog hanging out on Nathema? And since Vitiate used Zildrog to consume life on Nathema long before Naga Saddow started the great hyperspace war, wouldn't the builders know their device had been used? Is it possible that Vitiate used Iokath technology to build Zildrog and somehow it was imbued with Vitiate's personality resulting in it simply thinking it had consumed Nathema, when in fact it was Vitiate and his ritual? The Gravestone executes via superior weaponry... Vitiate executes by consuming life, as he did on Ziost, and we are certainly led to believe he did the same on Nathema until the Nathema flashpoint. I'm not sure I've ever really accepted Charles' explanation for Zildrog and Vitiate's use of it.

 

I'll try my best to answer your questions but it will be mostly my own opinions based on game observations.

1-This is honestly quite an interesting question, I do wonder if one side created the gravestone as a way to counter the Eternal Fleet. I believe if the myth is to be taken at face value then it was likely one side fighting against the other.

 

2- This is also an interesting one. The codex entry mentions the Zildrog legends are in fact older than the Six Gods' pantheon, so if we take the legends at face value we can conclude that Zildrog in fact came first. Now considering the fact they were on a civil war it is very possible one side built the Six Gods in order to counter Zildrog, or perhaps all the machine gods were built around the same time and only actived during the war. It is possible that the Iokathi, as Charles calls them, just have a thing for superweapons.

 

3- You got the lore wrong there, Tenebrae only did the Nathema ritual AFTER the great hyperspace war. I believe Wookieepedia puts the start of the Exodus at 4999 BBY, which was shortly after he did the Nathema ritual. And the game tells us the Iokathi went extinct thousands of years before SWTOR, if I recall at least 3000, so by the time their civil war would be going on the Sith would still be in the early period of the First Empire.

 

4- No, from everything that is told from us in the game Zildrog was one of the Iokathi's superweapons. And from a post Dev from Charles himself we do know Tenebrae did used Zildrog during his ritual, from my understanding Tenebrae needs to lay a groundwork for his ritual to work, in the JK storyline he does tries that by attempting to blow up Belsavis, releasing a massive plague on Voss, and blowing up a Harrower on Corelllia. Of course the Hero of Tython stops all those attempts, and on Ziost he needed to kill multiple people before being able to consume it. So it is likely Zildrog was used to create enough death allowing him to feed on the very force itself, I would be more curious as to how he devised such a ritual and how he found and learned to operate Zildrog, I suppose he could've always struck a deal with it.

I'll try my best to answer your questions but it will be mostly my own opinions based on game observations.

1-This is honestly quite an interesting question, I do wonder if one side created the gravestone as a way to counter the Eternal Fleet. I believe if the myth is to be taken at face value then it was likely one side fighting against the other.

 

2- This is also an interesting one. The codex entry mentions the Zildrog legends are in fact older than the Six Gods' pantheon, so if we take the legends at face value we can conclude that Zildrog in fact came first. Now considering the fact they were on a civil war it is very possible one side built the Six Gods in order to counter Zildrog, or perhaps all the machine gods were built around the same time and only actived during the war. It is possible that the Iokathi, as Charles calls them, just have a thing for superweapons.

 

(snip)

 

4- No, from everything that is told from us in the game Zildrog was one of the Iokathi's superweapons. And from a post Dev from Charles himself we do know Tenebrae did used Zildrog during his ritual, from my understanding Tenebrae needs to lay a groundwork for his ritual to work, in the JK storyline he does tries that by attempting to blow up Belsavis, releasing a massive plague on Voss, and blowing up a Harrower on Corelllia. Of course the Hero of Tython stops all those attempts, and on Ziost he needed to kill multiple people before being able to consume it. So it is likely Zildrog was used to create enough death allowing him to feed on the very force itself, I would be more curious as to how he devised such a ritual and how he found and learned to operate Zildrog, I suppose he could've always struck a deal with it.

 

Zakuul was a weapons test, not an off-world front for their civil war, as best as we can tell. So, if Zildrog and the Gravestone were built as a counter to the Fleet, it would have to be part of the design before the civil war. That's what doesn't make sense to me. I get the idea of building a "fail safe" into an otherwise unstoppable fleet. But the Gravestone is capable of countering the Fleet without Zildrog, and by all accounts, as you said, Zildrog predates the testing of the machine gods/fleet on Zakuul, since Tenebrae/Vitiate used it.

 

Tenebrae-turned-Vitiate would have been fascinated with the Iokathi tech he "found" on Nathema. Did he seek out Zakuul because he knew of Zildrog? Or did he just happen to stumble upon the legends of the Eternal Fleet and the Six Machine Gods when he happened to stumble upon Zakuul? As you mentioned, he used the Scions to help him find the fleet, lost in space after the builders civil war. He seems far too clever not to make the connection between the technologies.

 

Also, the Builders never really left tech on a planet. It was always in connection with a weapons test. Why would they leave Zildrog on Nathema/Madrias and NOT use it, only to allow a less worthy person (in their view) to use it to fuel a Force ritual?

 

Lastly, I can't imagine they knew nothing of the Force, even if they didn't have the concepts of the ancient Jedai'i or Sith'ari. They were so intelligent, that they completely missed the foolishness of leaving a superweapon on a planet of Force sensitives?

Zakuul was a weapons test, not an off-world front for their civil war, as best as we can tell. So, if Zildrog and the Gravestone were built as a counter to the Fleet, it would have to be part of the design before the civil war. That's what doesn't make sense to me. I get the idea of building a "fail safe" into an otherwise unstoppable fleet. But the Gravestone is capable of countering the Fleet without Zildrog, and by all accounts, as you said, Zildrog predates the testing of the machine gods/fleet on Zakuul, since Tenebrae/Vitiate used it.

 

Tenebrae-turned-Vitiate would have been fascinated with the Iokathi tech he "found" on Nathema. Did he seek out Zakuul because he knew of Zildrog? Or did he just happen to stumble upon the legends of the Eternal Fleet and the Six Machine Gods when he happened to stumble upon Zakuul? As you mentioned, he used the Scions to help him find the fleet, lost in space after the builders civil war. He seems far too clever not to make the connection between the technologies.

 

Also, the Builders never really left tech on a planet. It was always in connection with a weapons test. Why would they leave Zildrog on Nathema/Madrias and NOT use it, only to allow a less worthy person (in their view) to use it to fuel a Force ritual?

 

Lastly, I can't imagine they knew nothing of the Force, even if they didn't have the concepts of the ancient Jedai'i or Sith'ari. They were so intelligent, that they completely missed the foolishness of leaving a superweapon on a planet of Force sensitives?

 

1-I can only speculate, perhaps they were fighting for control of Zakuul for whatever reason. Or just happened to be there either through an ambush or through some military strategy, we don't know much about the war so it is really hard to tell what part Zakuul played it, I really can't answer this for sure.

 

2-I really would like an answer to both of those, it really makes me wonder if he knew of Iokath and if he did why not acquire the six. Perhaps he thought the Fleet would be useful enough. Who knows.

 

3-That's the problem, for all we know Tenebrae found it elsewhere and moved it to one of his vaults. Unfortunately the game doesn't tell us whether or not the vault was built around Zildrog or for Zildrog, I would really like to know how Tenebrae acquired Zildrog in the first place. Perhaps it was on Nathema or Medriaas as it was called before he rose to powe, or perhaps Tenebrae found it somewhere else. Also you seem under the impression the Iokathi were alive during Tenebrae's early life, they weren't. From what the game tells us they were extinct millennia ago long before Tenebrae was born. I would argue that they were extinct by the time Tenebrae rose to power. It's been a while since I ran KOTET however so let me know if I'm getting the dates wrong.

 

4-You bring up an interesting question, I do wonder

how the Iokathi treated their force sensitives or if they even had any. It's clear they had the capabilities to replica lightsaber technology on some level, considering Tyth's weapon, although to be fair Tyth's weapon does have capabilities a lightsaber does not. Both seem to be made from plasma but it seems Tyth is able to "leak it" through his attacks, perhaps I am overanalyzing a simple fight mechanic but it does makes me wonder how the force was viewed in their society and if they were even aware of it. At beast I can take a guess that perhaps they were aware of it but focused more on technology, like The Gree Enclave.

Edited August 23, 2018 by FlameYOL

My original thoughts after the Nathaman Conspiracy is this (a bit long):

 

Tenebrae was just another voice of the emperor. The truth is that we don't really know where the emperor started. Even though a lot of people agreed it started with Tenebrae, i think the emperor hollowed out a troubled young boy and used him to advance his own aims to continue to fuel his desire to remain immortal in the force.

 

The emperor had a hand in constructing Iokath, the gemini droids, Scorpio and many others along the way and that he is far far older than suspected. He was involved as one of the creators as he took a voice there as well.

 

When Dramath was slain and his spirit contained for the emperors amusement, Medriass became Nathema and the emperor continued to learn secrets, but he already knew about Zildrog and was planning to use the machine to feed it and himself knowing what the asking price is. The Emperor wanted billions of deaths to fuel his immortality bid and then use the pretext of gathering thousands of sith on the surface to conjure an illusion of power and letting Zildrog take those deaths as its asking price while zildrog used the energy pulse to destroy everything else so the emperor can gain what he needed.

 

It turns out that the events witnessed there by Scourge was just a show for his benefit, to make it look like the emperor was doing this, but in reality it was Zildrog.

 

It is clear at this point in time however that his sith empire was not worth the bother and went looking for another empire to make, using what he knew of Iokath, he revisted that world and learned of Zakuul from the tests he ordered on those worlds as one of its creators (the mummified man on the chair you see on Iokath). He went to that world, hollowed out Valkorion as his voice, so at this point he had two voices. One in the Sith Empire shortly after Nathema's destruction and one on Zakuul. Meanwhile the deaths the droids committed to learn and evolve also fuelled the emperor.

 

The events with Revan were a minor distraction for the emperor and i suspect during this era he found Vitiate and hollowed him out as well and the emperors previous voice was put on ice, with Nathama Zealots standing guard, just in case things went sideways one day.

 

Revan received a flake of the emperors growing power, it was hoped that Revan and Alek would fuel the war the emperor so badly wanted without risking his hollow sith empire and his own power, while Revan can't do it for him. Alek however succeeded in doing exactly what the emperor wanted, Taris was destroyed and every living being was turned into yet more fuel for the emperor. Revan was redeemed but ultimately i suspect the emperor knew Scourge had divided loyalities through the connection that keeps Scourge comatose to the outside world for his own immortality, and perhaps another voice for the emperor one day.

 

Revan was locked up and the emperor probed his mind while tripping him up. it turns out the emperor had managed to plant enough reasonable doubt in Revan so he became an instrument of his desire. but what Revan considered a success in convincing the emperor was infact something the emperor did himself to convince Revan all the more. Not because it was beneficial to the emperor or the empire but because it was a show to convince Revan and only Revan.

 

Revan did exactly what the emperor was hoping he'd do, restart the foundry, split into two and the bad side begins a war with the republic and empire, fuelling the emperor with more deaths. Leading to the emperor laughing at the end, the emperor wasn't defeated on Dromund Kaas but it was also a show as much for the Knight as it was for Revan. All of it was an illusion, including what everyone thought of the emperor being comatose and needing to recover, all a lie.

 

Even before the events on Yavin 4, the emperor was looking to get the biggest possible death count he can manage, but he already knew his Sith empire was a failure, but even so he played his role in the minor hope that the empire can caused the deaths the emperor wanted but he already knew it wasn't enough, and was proven to be correct leading to convincing Revan.

 

The peace treaty was also an expected opportunity for the emperor to plan deaths on a number of worlds, and while the knight may have set his plans back, it was hardly a dent to the emperors overall plan. He decided he had enough of the known galaxy after those events and also abandoned his servants, the empire was a lie from the start and the republic was just caught in the middle of the emperors desire to feed on death.

 

Meanwhile on Zakuul over that time Valkorion pretended not to know where things were in wild space as the Scions found him a fleet of Iokath ships, he likely ordered to that location in a previous voice in the hopes of finding the fleet so he can make his mark with a headstart on Zakuul. The old gods did invade Zakuul and leave a lasting impression (also caused by the previous emperors voice), so it made it more easier o manipulate the people of that world when he brought a fleet, progress and stability to this new empire learning the lessons he picked up along the way, and from Revan as well, how to do good and how to do bad when and where required.

 

Zakuul was made a power practically overnight when the Scions were made apart of the culture, when the Knights were brought in to police everyone else and believe in the emperor so completely that they gain strength from it in the force. Ships with humanoid crews were replaced by the emperors choice, gemini droids and few lines of battledroids, their schematics and the like. it made sure the fleet in space can not be corrupted by weakness, and on the ground zealots controlled everything else while keeping the people happy, ignorant and proud.

 

I suspected at this point the emperor got a reading from a scion who told him an outlander who isn't yet born, would make an impact on the galaxy and end the emperor once and for all. Naturally the emperor got rid of that smoking gun and worked on a way to protect himself and then Senya came along, the perfect tool for his needs. He had three children with her and cared nothing for her after this, the sons would be ignored outright for the most part in order to get them to bend to his will and implant a force marker that would only help the emperor, of course Thexan was murdered but it didn't matter to the emperor, Thexan was an anomaly who endured by accepting the light, but Arcann swung the other way and exactly to what the emperor wanted. Arcann lacked discipline.

 

Vaylin was another matter though, the emperor is indeed probably afraid of the monster he brought into the galaxy and she needed to be contained and also given a force marker to help the emperor. she was broken in personality and made into a weapon and that is all she would ever been, but after remaking her personality there were undesirable traits left behind which meant she too lacked disciplne. I suspect the emperor saw this well in advance during the kids training.

 

All of it was designed for one purpose, to advance the cause of the emperor, to make sure there are plans on top of plans to make sure the emperor gets what he wants the most, countless deaths to continue his immortality bid.

 

 

With all that said, his body on Nathema could still be out there being looked after by the zealots, after losing all his built up power, he was forced back into the remaining voice to exist and he is no more powerful than any other zealot on Nathema.

 

No longer can anyone else sense him over anyone else in the force.

No longer is Scourge made immortal and his senses return.

The Emperors Hand, Zealots and Imperial Guards no longer have a purpose.

The Empire is without a purpose.

The Republic is in Limbo

The Zakuul empire is no longer threat to anyone.

Voss is a ruin and a galaxy on fire.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Celise

Tenebrae was just another voice of the emperor. The truth is that we don't really know where the emperor started. Even though a lot of people agreed it started with Tenebrae, i think the emperor hollowed out a troubled young boy and used him to advance his own aims to continue to fuel his desire to remain immortal in the force.

 

The emperor had a hand in constructing Iokath, the gemini droids, Scorpio and many others along the way and that he is far far older than suspected. He was involved as one of the creators as he took a voice there as well.

Unless they were to retcon that, no. Tenebrae IS the Emperor. And he was born way after the construction of those superweapons, so unless Tenebrae learned to time travel it's not possible that he was involved at all.

 

 

When Dramath was slain and his spirit contained for the emperors amusement, Medriass became Nathema and the emperor continued to learn secrets, but he already knew about Zildrog and was planning to use the machine to feed it and himself knowing what the asking price is. The Emperor wanted billions of deaths to fuel his immortality bid and then use the pretext of gathering thousands of sith on the surface to conjure an illusion of power and letting Zildrog take those deaths as its asking price while zildrog used the energy pulse to destroy everything else so the emperor can gain what he needed.

 

It turns out that the events witnessed there by Scourge was just a show for his benefit, to make it look like the emperor was doing this, but in reality it was Zildrog.

Wait what events? Lord Scourge does visit Nathema but millennium after the ritual is done, by the time Scourge visits Nathema the world is already absent of the force.

 

It is clear at this point in time however that his sith empire was not worth the bother and went looking for another empire to make, using what he knew of Iokath, he revisted that world and learned of Zakuul from the tests he ordered on those worlds as one of its creators (the mummified man on the chair you see on Iokath). He went to that world, hollowed out Valkorion as his voice, so at this point he had two voices. One in the Sith Empire shortly after Nathema's destruction and one on Zakuul. Meanwhile the deaths the droids committed to learn and evolve also fuelled the emperor.

 

The events with Revan were a minor distraction for the emperor and i suspect during this era he found Vitiate and hollowed him out as well and the emperors previous voice was put on ice, with Nathama Zealots standing guard, just in case things went sideways one day.

Well I can't argue with your first point too much, at least as far as timeline is concerned. We unfortunately have no idea how old the Eternal Empire is, we know from the Eternal Throne codex entry that the Spire is one century old by the time of KOTFE and that it took generations to built it.

 

But if Tenebrae is Vitiate, if the Emperor isn't either then how come he hollows out the same body twice? I'm confused here.

 

Revan received a flake of the emperors growing power, it was hoped that Revan and Alek would fuel the war the emperor so badly wanted without risking his hollow sith empire and his own power, while Revan can't do it for him. Alek however succeeded in doing exactly what the emperor wanted, Taris was destroyed and every living being was turned into yet more fuel for the emperor. Revan was redeemed but ultimately i suspect the emperor knew Scourge had divided loyalities through the connection that keeps Scourge comatose to the outside world for his own immortality, and perhaps another voice for the emperor one day.

 

Revan was locked up and the emperor probed his mind while tripping him up. it turns out the emperor had managed to plant enough reasonable doubt in Revan so he became an instrument of his desire. but what Revan considered a success in convincing the emperor was infact something the emperor did himself to convince Revan all the more. Not because it was beneficial to the emperor or the empire but because it was a show to convince Revan and only Revan.

From what was told to us in the novel Tenebrae merely converted them, he didn't gave Revan any kind of power. It is interesting to think what Tenebrae would think of Taris however, also makes me wonder if after Darth Malak took the mantle of Dark Lord if he had any plans to deal with Tenebrae.

I do agree with this, I think Charles mentions that as being a fact but it seems like Tenebrae was just toying with Revan. Plus from his post about Zakuul we're lead to believe that the reason Tenebrae made the Treaty of Coruscant was that so he could focus on his children.

 

Revan did exactly what the emperor was hoping he'd do, restart the foundry, split into two and the bad side begins a war with the republic and empire, fuelling the emperor with more deaths. Leading to the emperor laughing at the end, the emperor wasn't defeated on Dromund Kaas but it was also a show as much for the Knight as it was for Revan. All of it was an illusion, including what everyone thought of the emperor being comatose and needing to recover, all a lie.

 

Even before the events on Yavin 4, the emperor was looking to get the biggest possible death count he can manage, but he already knew his Sith empire was a failure, but even so he played his role in the minor hope that the empire can caused the deaths the emperor wanted but he already knew it wasn't enough, and was proven to be correct leading to convincing Revan.

 

"You wanted my return. You did not need to destroy whole fleets, or turn a living world barren for that. You only had to point out the Republic and Empire into a shared adversary, and let them do what they do naturally, make war."

I do however think that Tenebrae was at the very least weakned by the loss of his voice at Dromund Kaas, all things considered. With him consuming Ziost he went back to his full strength and if I had to guess likely re-united all of his power in one body, Valkorion.

 

Yeah, it's as he says it himself "Everything else. The means, to an end."

 

The peace treaty was also an expected opportunity for the emperor to plan deaths on a number of worlds, and while the knight may have set his plans back, it was hardly a dent to the emperors overall plan. He decided he had enough of the known galaxy after those events and also abandoned his servants, the empire was a lie from the start and the republic was just caught in the middle of the emperors desire to feed on death.

 

Meanwhile on Zakuul over that time Valkorion pretended not to know where things were in wild space as the Scions found him a fleet of Iokath ships, he likely ordered to that location in a previous voice in the hopes of finding the fleet so he can make his mark with a headstart on Zakuul. The old gods did invade Zakuul and leave a lasting impression (also caused by the previous emperors voice), so it made it more easier o manipulate the people of that world when he brought a fleet, progress and stability to this new empire learning the lessons he picked up along the way, and from Revan as well, how to do good and how to do bad when and where required.

According to one of the posts Charles did about the KOTFE/KOTET story arc it was more about him focusing on the Eternal Empire.

 

Zakuul was made a power practically overnight when the Scions were made apart of the culture, when the Knights were brought in to police everyone else and believe in the emperor so completely that they gain strength from it in the force. Ships with humanoid crews were replaced by the emperors choice, gemini droids and few lines of battledroids, their schematics and the like. it made sure the fleet in space can not be corrupted by weakness, and on the ground zealots controlled everything else while keeping the people happy, ignorant and proud.

 

I suspected at this point the emperor got a reading from a scion who told him an outlander who isn't yet born, would make an impact on the galaxy and end the emperor once and for all. Naturally the emperor got rid of that smoking gun and worked on a way to protect himself and then Senya came along, the perfect tool for his needs. He had three children with her and cared nothing for her after this, the sons would be ignored outright for the most part in order to get them to bend to his will and implant a force marker that would only help the emperor, of course Thexan was murdered but it didn't matter to the emperor, Thexan was an anomaly who endured by accepting the light, but Arcann swung the other way and exactly to what the emperor wanted. Arcann lacked discipline.

Zakuul seemed to be made over the couse of centuries, how many centuries up to the debate however. It's clear that Tenebrae did used the Eternal Fleet as a way to expand the Eternal Empire and essentially built an entire society revolved around him, the Knights of Zakuul don't see themselves as anything else but the extension of the Emperor's will. They're fanatically loyal which is what the Sith failed to be for Tenebrae, hence him abandoning it and believing it to be a dead-end.

 

There seemed to be indeed a prophecy concerning The Outlander, the first few chapters of KOTFE are all about prophecy but unfortunately they never properly explained it what it was. Heskal mentions something about a catastrophe coming but we never get too much on why bringing us is bad, of course we know but point is they never explain whether or not there is a prophecy for our characters. Indeed, I always thought he had children either to make them his future vessel as we see Valkorion aging from the Sacrifice Trailer or he needs someone more powerful to enforce his will.

 

Vaylin was another matter though, the emperor is indeed probably afraid of the monster he brought into the galaxy and she needed to be contained and also given a force marker to help the emperor. she was broken in personality and made into a weapon and that is all she would ever been, but after remaking her personality there were undesirable traits left behind which meant she too lacked disciplne. I suspect the emperor saw this well in advance during the kids training.

 

All of it was designed for one purpose, to advance the cause of the emperor, to make sure there are plans on top of plans to make sure the emperor gets what he wants the most, countless deaths to continue his immortality bid.

Vaylin was a threat to his power, someone with that much power who doesn't know how to control it could be a double-edge sword.

 

With all that said, his body on Nathema could still be out there being looked after by the zealots, after losing all his built up power, he was forced back into the remaining voice to exist and he is no more powerful than any other zealot on Nathema.

 

No longer can anyone else sense him over anyone else in the force.

No longer is Scourge made immortal and his senses return.

The Emperors Hand, Zealots and Imperial Guards no longer have a purpose.

The Empire is without a purpose.

The Republic is in Limbo

The Zakuul empire is no longer threat to anyone.

Voss is a ruin and a galaxy on fire.

Indeed, I always wondered what happened to Tenebrae's original Sith Pureblood. Charles keeps saying they don't explain it because it's fun to have mystery and perhaps they might use that as a plot device later but I would very much like to hear if they even thought too much on the matter, because as we know after Revan attempts to kill Tenebrae a second time he seemingly stops using his real body and starts using the voice of the Emperor, it makes me wonder if his real body is ash or if he kept it preserved somewhere.

you wanted an explanation of filling plotholes and you got them from my end. but you decided to pick it all apart so that ends my efforts on this thread. Edited August 24, 2018 by Celise

you wanted an explanation of filling plotholes and you got them from my end. but you decided to pick it all apart so that ends my efforts on this thread.

 

I picked it all part as part of a discussion, I wasn't trying to be rude towards you if that was your impression. I'm merely asking as I'm curious about your explanations and where they came from, some of the stuff you've said is objectively wrong. Like Tenebrae being another voice. I'm not saying you're not allowed to think that I'm just asking why. As an example if the Emperor didn't start with Tenebrae then who did, what or who is the Emperor? An even Ancient Sith, perhaps predating Ragnos and Tulak? Even older perhaps predating the founding of the Order? Something else entirely?

Edited August 24, 2018 by FlameYOL

Also you seem under the impression the Iokathi were alive during Tenebrae's early life, they weren't. From what the game tells us they were extinct millennia ago long before Tenebrae was born. I would argue that they were extinct by the time Tenebrae rose to power. It's been a while since I ran KOTET however so let me know if I'm getting the dates wrong.

 

I'm not under that impression per se, but Medriaas/Madrias, or however its spelled (I don't play with subtitles on), was filled with people, at least some of whom were sith purebloods, by the time Zildrog is laying dormant there. Regardless of whether the Builders are alive at the time of Tenebrae's ritual, there is nothing in the Revan novel or any of the game's codex entries to suggest that there was anything resembling a cataclysm on that planet prior to Tenebrae's ritual/Zildrog's awakening. Thus, the presence of Zildrog on that planet is an anomaly relative to other planets the Builder's interacted with. It was either left there by them without a weapons test, which is definitely a departure from their other historical exploits, or stolen from them and brought there (again, less plausible considering how advanced they are.) Either way, it raises the question of how much the Emperor knew of Iokathian technology prior to finding Valkorion and possessing his body and ascending to the Throne. It seems plausible that the tech involved in Zildrog communicating with and controlling the Gravestone formed the knowledge basis for Vitiate-Valkorion to construct the GEMINI hyperwave relay station underneath the Eternal Throne.

 

I may be mistaken, but I think Theron's slicing into the weapons factory revealed the civil war was "over a millenia" prior to the events of the game. When you interact with Scorpio in the necropolis on Iokath, she says the corpses are millenia old. Does she say tens of millenia, I don't think so but I might be wrong? We also know that the civil war erupted following the successful test of their penultimate design … which would have been the Droid Gods +/- the Fleet +/- Zildrog/Gravestone. So more than 1000 but less than 2000, which would put it potentially contemporaneous with the events of Tenebrae's ritual on Nathema. Maybe?

Edited August 25, 2018 by phalczen

Simply put, I think everyone has slightly different interpretations. As for the Emperor, I compiled a post of everything we know. It doesn't go heavily into the lore of Iokath as this convo seemed to do, but it does touch on it. Hope it solves some questions.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=953273

I'm not under that impression per se, but Medriaas/Madrias, or however its spelled (I don't play with subtitles on), was filled with people, at least some of whom were sith purebloods, by the time Zildrog is laying dormant there. Regardless of whether the Builders are alive at the time of Tenebrae's ritual, there is nothing in the Revan novel or any of the game's codex entries to suggest that there was anything resembling a cataclysm on that planet prior to Tenebrae's ritual/Zildrog's awakening. Thus, the presence of Zildrog on that planet is an anomaly relative to other planets the Builder's interacted with. It was either left there by them without a weapons test, which is definitely a departure from their other historical exploits, or stolen from them and brought there (again, less plausible considering how advanced they are.) Either way, it raises the question of how much the Emperor knew of Iokathian technology prior to finding Valkorion and possessing his body and ascending to the Throne. It seems plausible that the tech involved in Zildrog communicating with and controlling the Gravestone formed the knowledge basis for Vitiate-Valkorion to construct the GEMINI hyperwave relay station underneath the Eternal Throne.

Oh I seem to have misunderstood your point completely then, my apologies. It is an interesting question, perhaps they couldn't activate it properly or abandoned it? Perhaps it was activated and the world recovered? Either way it is interesting to think about it. The hyperwave relay station is also another thing I ponder about, it makes me wonder whether or not the Iokathi put it there as a way to control the Fleet or if Tenebrae built it himself, likely the latter but it makes me think how he was able to connect the Eternal Throne to the GEMINI hive-mind.

 

I may be mistaken, but I think Theron's slicing into the weapons factory revealed the civil war was "over a millenia" prior to the events of the game. When you interact with Scorpio in the necropolis on Iokath, she says the corpses are millenia old. Does she say tens of millenia, I don't think so but I might be wrong? We also know that the civil war erupted following the successful test of their penultimate design … which would have been the Droid Gods +/- the Fleet +/- Zildrog/Gravestone. So more than 1000 but less than 2000, which would put it potentially contemporaneous with the events of Tenebrae's ritual on Nathema. Maybe?

says that it was over three thousand years that the weapons were deployed, now who knows how many centuries or even millennia passed between their initial testing and their eventual extinction. Either it makes me think it was around the early Sith Empire that all went down, but I'll admit that I could be wrong as the game takes a lot of liberty with dates.

 

From what was told to us in the novel Tenebrae merely converted them, he didn't gave Revan any kind of power. It is interesting to think what Tenebrae would think of Taris however, also makes me wonder if after Darth Malak took the mantle of Dark Lord if he had any plans to deal with Tenebrae.

 

I think Charles mentions that as being a fact but it seems like Tenebrae was just toying with Revan. Plus from his post about Zakuul we're lead to believe that the reason Tenebrae made the Treaty of Coruscant was that so he could focus on his children.

 

I really enjoyed readings these posts as it has brought much clarity to who the emperor is and how it relates to Zildrog. I was curious about Revan, which is why I quoted part of your post above. I am reading the Revan novel (only at chapter 11 so far) However, I know the spoilers since I leveled a Jedi Knight and played SoR.

 

My issue is when as a republic player we go in and save the Jedi Prisoner - Revan. Revan meets us in the planning room and says he's off to the Foundry to stop the Emperor. Then as Imperial we kill Revan in the Foundry. I played this recently solo for the HK-51 quest and was able to click on responses I never heard before. So I got the picture of what happened to Revan. But he did not come across as dark at all. He didn't sound nearly as maniacal as he did during SoR. So at what point did he split off? Was it after Imperials killed him in the Foundry? Was it before? some of this doesn't add up for me.

 

Also, I just want to add that there are so many plotholes with the KOTET story and Nathema/Theron Spy Story. I just wish with as much time that was spent in KOTFE on the Gravestone itself, that we would have had some more story about it. Like the sounds the player character hears and finds Valk in the one area. Later Senya is there as well. If I recall don't we also fight with Vaylin in that area?

 

It seems to be a place that draws a significant amount of dark energy. I would have liked my Jedi or my Sith to comment on the dark coldness of that area of the ship. Even could have had Lana investigate it more as a separate quest.

 

Why was it just hanging around in a Zakuul swamp for all these centuries? I get the feeling the Valk knew about it so why did he just let it sit there. Plus I agree with Lana that us finding it wasn't destiny at all and maybe somehow manipulated through Valkorian. Although, I'm not sure how since he was in a weakened state in the player character's mind.

 

Another one is that Koth takes it on rescue missions when that ship could have been used to deal with Vaylin. And it doesn't matter what choice you make with Koth because even if he stays in KOTET chapter 1 he is off on relief and aid missions with the ship anyway.

 

I could go on but at this point.....the only thing that can fix the plotholes is a continuity stone!!!

I really enjoyed readings these posts as it has brought much clarity to who the emperor is and how it relates to Zildrog. I was curious about Revan, which is why I quoted part of your post above. I am reading the Revan novel (only at chapter 11 so far) However, I know the spoilers since I leveled a Jedi Knight and played SoR.

 

My issue is when as a republic player we go in and save the Jedi Prisoner - Revan. Revan meets us in the planning room and says he's off to the Foundry to stop the Emperor. Then as Imperial we kill Revan in the Foundry. I played this recently solo for the HK-51 quest and was able to click on responses I never heard before. So I got the picture of what happened to Revan. But he did not come across as dark at all. He didn't sound nearly as maniacal as he did during SoR. So at what point did he split off? Was it after Imperials killed him in the Foundry? Was it before? some of this doesn't add up for me.

He split after dying, part of him was willing to become one with the force. His light side was able to become a force ghost and one with the force, however his dark side kept living so as he would be able to defeat the Emperor. Revan after the foundry had begun his descent into his obsession with killing the Emperor, you can see that on the way he talks about the Empire and is willing to commit genocide so as to destroy the Emperor's legacy of "death" as he puts it. Revan Reborn just went 10 times crazier due to being quite literally only Revan's dark side, pushing the light side away so he could focus on what "they started".

 

Also, I just want to add that there are so many plotholes with the KOTET story and Nathema/Theron Spy Story. I just wish with as much time that was spent in KOTFE on the Gravestone itself, that we would have had some more story about it. Like the sounds the player character hears and finds Valk in the one area. Later Senya is there as well. If I recall don't we also fight with Vaylin in that area?

 

It seems to be a place that draws a significant amount of dark energy. I would have liked my Jedi or my Sith to comment on the dark coldness of that area of the ship. Even could have had Lana investigate it more as a separate quest.

 

Why was it just hanging around in a Zakuul swamp for all these centuries? I get the feeling the Valk knew about it so why did he just let it sit there. Plus I agree with Lana that us finding it wasn't destiny at all and maybe somehow manipulated through Valkorian. Although, I'm not sure how since he was in a weakened state in the player character's mind.

 

Another one is that Koth takes it on rescue missions when that ship could have been used to deal with Vaylin. And it doesn't matter what choice you make with Koth because even if he stays in KOTET chapter 1 he is off on relief and aid missions with the ship anyway.

 

I could go on but at this point.....the only thing that can fix the plotholes is a continuity stone!!!

Yep. Senya felt drawn to that place, Vaylin has a duel there with Lana and we arrive just in time to save Lana.

 

It's a good question, from what is told to us the war happened. Perhaps the Iokathi locked the Gravestone away and let it rot in the Endless Swamp. I would be rather curious as to how it got there. Whether it was an attempt at preventing their own superweapons of killing each other, if one side of the war managed to shut down the Gravestone and it crash-landed on Zakuul.

 

Agreed with you there, Koth should've used that for war as opposed to just helping out random people. Don't get me wrong his heart is in the right place but his mind isn't.

Edited September 1, 2018 by FlameYOL