I agree. A melee tank should not be doing less damage than a ranged tank. That's two inherent disadvantages to the Juggernaut and Guardian; needing to be in close and doing no damage.

My Powertech is not yet high enough for me to make any kind of comparison but he sure does destroy mobs far quicker and safer than my Juggernaut ever could.

Jugg/Guardian tanks can hold aggro just fine IF DPS learns to keep it in thier pants and not blow their entire resource pool on AOEs in the first three seconds of the fight.

 

Good CC, Good Target management, DPS playing for sustained DPS not burst. All of this make Juggs/Guardians work fine.

 

The problem could be declared to be a problem with DPS needing to L2P. But for one thing. The other tanks (or at least Powertechs/Vanguards) don't need any of that.

 

No PT's/Vanguards complain about holding aoe threat, or threat in general outside of poor tanks and DPS REALLY pushing.

 

It's the comparison that is the problem, why bring a jugg/Guard if you can get a PT/VG and not have to play so tight a game?

And that very thing has started to happen. Outside of guilds of close-knit friends Juggernauts are getting booted from groups/ops when people see they are not a PT. Have even heard, in General, "sry we need tanks. not juggs."

BW says Jugg/guardian threat is fine. What they fail to realize is that if gamers have a choice between different types of tanks, they will ALWAYS go with the one that can do it all, easier and more efficiently. As opposed to a tank that has to be babied along in a group, gimping the group DPS, wasting time sitting around every pull while the tank tries to build up threat.

Or the group could get a PT/Vanguard, who gets aggro immediately, from range, holds the aggro without issue, and the group can go to town without having to babysit a gimp tank lite.

That's actually the argument I give when people say that gunners should have the highest DPS in the game. Sure, they are glass cannons, but at LEAST they have range.

truly I think that the melee-range only classes, because of the HUGE handicap to survivability and aggro management, should be doing at LEAST 30% more damage than their ranged equivalent.

Jugg should be a perfectly viable class when you are not looking for a pure tank, but rather a tank/dps hybrid. Their toughness should be top-tier, and their DPS should only be overcome by that of their more aggressive advanced alternative, and perhaps operatives (who also mostly have to work in melee range, and have slightly less armor balanced by heals and emergency escapes)

I think there could be a few inventive solutions to our issues. not necessarily new to the genre, but a little beyond the basic "extra threat in Soresu".

1) talent in immortal that give s threat over time component to vicious slash and smash. not extra damage, but threat over time. make it long enough that we can keep that up with the smash CD. Allow the ToT from smash and VS stack together (but their independent CD's would not allot them to stack on themselves). that would add a ineraction component with those two that could be interesting.

2) Talent (again in the immortal tree) that reduces the CD of saber throw every time we use retaliation. This gives us the ability to use one of our ranged skills more often IF we are being focused on for hitting...also works with our design of being "active" tanks. we still have to use the skill to get the reduction.

3) Talent (immortal again...surprised?) that adds a debuff on mobs attacked by our scream that increases taken damage by 2-3%, and lasts long enough to stack 2-3x for roughly a 6% damage increase for every one attacking the mob. adjust the percentage to make it viable of course, but keep the CD so that if were not keeping up on our scream, it will drop off shortly.

4)extra threat on saber throw

there we go. #1 resolves our AoE threat issue as long as were active on using our AoE skills effectively...WITHOUT increasing damage and unbalancing in PvP. #2 takes care (to a degree) our limited range skills. with #4, it makes saber throw a very effective ranged threat skill without again adding too much damage.

And #3 gives us that viability in Hard modes that were missing, again WITHOUT increasing our DPS to OP levels in PvP (if it is true that were already doing enough of that already). We would be wanted in PvE HM's but not for our damage increase (most tanks could care less about real damage), but were still giving the same overall damage increase to the party that the other tanks are via their own personal DPS.

We could obviously play with the numbers (pulled this out of my head as i read the whole thread), but the ideas are still sound, Increase our threat slightly, especially with AoE skills, give us more flexibility at range without affecting leaps CD and making us OP in PvP, and we could also get that damage increase we need. heck, the debuff could help us solo even, as our companions would benefit from it too. adjusting saber throw to make it more effective would also prevent us from having to need that pull (that again someone mentioned was eliminated due to it OP'ing us)

the only other thing I think they could tweak (if what a previous poster said was true) is make our cone skill at least equal in range/coverage to the PT skill

in most fights that I have encountered (save Raids) most multiple packs consist of a few regulars, a strong or 2..maybe an elite. Leave the regulars to the dps to blow their bursts on while you contain the silvers and golds..

By now everyone should know the kill order..Regulars..then silvers..then golds. And really, at low levels noone is Superman. Wait till 50 to complain

Yes Juggers have serious AOE threat issues, but you have to keep im mind that some "dps" players love to face roll from one side of the keyboard to the next in order to see the big numbers.

I was a tank in WoW from the vanilla days all the way up thru Cataclysm so I seen the steady decline of warrior tanks. I also remember how badly BROKEN warriors were in the beginning as we just were not generating any rage at all (anyone else remember this?). I took awhile to get fixed but eventually it did. And while it annoyed me to see Pali tanks starting to pop up along with druids and the eventual Dks, I think there is one point alot of people are missing. You cant have ONE class for tanking, same with healing. People pay to play MMOs to experience content, no matter what class they chose to play.

If warriors were the "only" tanks in every game, and priests the only healers, whats the point of having or even playing the other classes, when noone would need them? I personally view Juggers as being the "Big Boy" tanks, for single target main bosses, and a class like Assassins are good for collecting and holding the multiple trash packs (im not to sure where Power techs fall). Each tank has its speciality, but at the same time it leaves 2 tank runs short one viable dps, since the other tank will be dpsing when the fight requires, a single tank.

I have tanked every bit of content as a Jugg, including every bit of Nightmare Mode. Juggernaut can get the job done and I enjoy utilizing so many abilities throughout the course of a fight, with that being said.....

I'd like to see an upgrade to AOE threat for sure. It would make clearing Ops trash considerably more pleasurable. I don't even care if I can't lock it down, i'd at least like to be able to keep most of the mobs i'm attacking on me. If one or two slip away, I have taunt and back hand to pick them up, but when all 5 bolt when my AOE taunt runs out, something is clearly amiss.

Just about every AOE ability put down by any DPS class can pull off a Juggernaut, its a bit pathetic. I'm in nearly full Rakata (missing 2 pieces), and it doesn't help a bit because so is most of the raid.

As a matter of fact, threat in general seems to be a problem with Juggy, even single target. Nearly having to spam taunt isn't right. No tank should have to rely so heavily on taunts to hold threat.

I have tanked every bit of content as a Jugg, including every bit of Nightmare Mode. Juggernaut can get the job done and I enjoy utilizing so many abilities throughout the course of a fight, with that being said.....

 

I'd like to see an upgrade to AOE threat for sure. It would make clearing Ops trash considerably more pleasurable. I don't even care if I can't lock it down, i'd at least like to be able to keep most of the mobs i'm attacking on me. If one or two slip away, I have taunt and back hand to pick them up, but when all 5 bolt when my AOE taunt runs out, something is clearly amiss.

 

Just about every AOE ability put down by any DPS class can pull off a Juggernaut, its a bit pathetic. I'm in nearly full Rakata (missing 2 pieces), and it doesn't help a bit because so is most of the raid.

 

As a matter of fact, threat in general seems to be a problem with Juggy, even single target. Nearly having to spam taunt isn't right. No tank should have to rely so heavily on taunts to hold threat.

I understand Juggs can get the job done. I understand that that there are plenty of people that have cleared various hard modes and flashpoints.

My question to all these Jugg players, and to BW, is there one instance where if you had been replaced by an equally-geared PT that the run wouldn't have been better, faster, with less/no aggro lost?

The idea of a single target tank is, IMO, a complete waste of space in a group. Why have a tank that just does single target, and CAN do more than one, poorly, if the group wants to slow way down and do less DPS, if they can just get one tank that does it all, simpler, better?

I love my Jugg, and I love my Guardian, but the mechanics of "single-target tanking" when better options are available are dooming Juggs to a slow death. I can't help but think back to Vanilla WoW right after release, with high-end raids of paladins wearing cloth armor, so they could heal the priests since they were utterly unable to tank. Sadly, we don't even bring that to the table.

My question to all these Jugg players, and to BW, is there one instance where if you had been replaced by an equally-geared PT that the run wouldn't have been better, faster, with less/no aggro lost?

I don't know because i'm the only tank, and generally we don't live and die by my performance alone. I don't spend time factoring in the difference a theoretical class change may have made to a successful kill. As long as everybody lives, and the mobs die, all is well.

I can't think of a situation where the Juggy's limitations have prevented us from progressing.

I would still like to see increased AOE threat for more pleasurable trash killing, especially in Nightmare Mode, but ultimately its just trash and it all dies one way or the other.

In the end I believe Juggy's will get some attention in regards to threat, be it single target or AOE, but I think a minor tweak is all that is required.

Very simple three step fix:

1 - Soresu form needs to be 100% threat increase instead of 50%

2 - Sweeping slash additionally needs to REFRESH sunder stacks (not APPLY)

3 - Sundering slash needs to have 500% more threat applied with the stacks (when the stacks fall off, threat will drop)

This is balanced and adds a threat mechanic that forces the tank to choose what sticks to him. Want a that group of 4 mobs to stay around? BETTER SUNDER THEM QUICK

I started playing WOW when Wrath of the Lich King came out and my main character was a warrior. By the time I left at the end of Firelands patch I had tanked every raid with my warrior and DK. I have also tanked many heroics with my paladin and druid. Each class had its plusses and minuses (depending on which way the nerf bat swung). It really feels like Immortal Juggernauts are very poor threat generators, along with what I'm willing to bet is the worst DPS of any talent tree in the game. But the DPS isn't my concern really since we (theoretically) have such good mitigation (I have come to doubt that a little, but thats for another thread I think).

What I have experienced through leveling my juggernaut using the immortal tree is that leveling was not really bad at all until mid 40's when I seemed to hit a gear gap (probably my own fault). I skipped most flashpoints (read first statement about gear gap, haha) and had to solo them at 50 so I can't comment on lower level group tanking other than the various 2~4 man quests. I think that introducing the above changes will help immortal juggernaut tanks of all levels.

TLDR; - boost threat by using the sunder mechanic plz

I have a level 50 PT and a 41 Jug that I am currently leveling. I have tanked with my PT but when my guild runs ops I switch to dps. Tanking does seem pretty simple as a PT comparatively to my Jug, but I haven't done any hardmodes so I can't be certain

I do believe a better aoe needs to be created that has good threat. Maybe some force lightening like Malgus.

I also believe that a force pull needs to be implemented, but as I was thinking about it I thought of empire strikes back when Vader pulls Hans blaster from him in cloud city. What if Jugs had this ability and caused the ranged mob to become melee? This wouldn't be fair in pvp, but maybe something can be altered.

I understand Juggs can get the job done. I understand that that there are plenty of people that have cleared various hard modes and flashpoints.

 

My question to all these Jugg players, and to BW, is there one instance where if you had been replaced by an equally-geared PT that the run wouldn't have been better, faster, with less/no aggro lost?

 

The idea of a single target tank is, IMO, a complete waste of space in a group. Why have a tank that just does single target, and CAN do more than one, poorly, if the group wants to slow way down and do less DPS, if they can just get one tank that does it all, simpler, better?

 

I love my Jugg, and I love my Guardian, but the mechanics of "single-target tanking" when better options are available are dooming Juggs to a slow death. I can't help but think back to Vanilla WoW right after release, with high-end raids of paladins wearing cloth armor, so they could heal the priests since they were utterly unable to tank. Sadly, we don't even bring that to the table.

Dunno bout exchanging for PT but I know that some bosses and encounters are much harder if near impossible if you change jugg to assa. Also we got best def cds in the game.

I also believe that a force pull needs to be implemented, but as I was thinking about it I thought of empire strikes back when Vader pulls Hans blaster from him in cloud city. What if Jugs had this ability and caused the ranged mob to become melee? This wouldn't be fair in pvp, but maybe something can be altered.

LOVE this idea, maybe they could add that as part of legacy or something. We definitely need a pull, and I could totally do without a push. That was actually my one beef with Juggernaut early on. The other two tanks get a pull and we get a push! Disarming an enemy Vader style would be a pretty slick way to do it.

LOVE this idea, maybe they could add that as part of legacy or something. We definitely need a pull, and I could totally do without a push. That was actually my one beef with Juggernaut early on. The other two tanks get a pull and we get a push! Disarming an enemy Vader style would be a pretty slick way to do it.

jugg forums - posted topic with an disarm idea ala vader style, go and post your opinion.

As for force push - we deffo need it, it's best knockback in the game.

jugg forums - posted topic with an disarm idea ala vader style, go and post your opinion.

 

As for force push - we deffo need it, it's best knockback in the game.

Yeah, its a powerful knockback for sure, and it's probably nice for PVP. As a melee tank though, I like to keep my enemy in close, which is why i'd prefer a pull.

Yeah, its a powerful knockback for sure, and it's probably nice for PVP. As a melee tank though, I like to keep my enemy in close, which is why i'd prefer a pull.

After the knockback you gain a free force charge, which in other words translates to keeping your opponent close :>

Jugs don't need a pull.

If you have trouble positioning large mobs then you are just a bad tank in general.

How to position huge mobs with large hitboxes.

1. Find out where the center of mass is relative to how far back he stands from you.

2. Find out how far you need to back pedal to get him to follow.

3. Run in a circle around him to rotate him on the center of mass without moveing him.

4. Be good tank.

I don't get why you people are having so much trouble with this.

Jugs don't need a pull.

 

If you have trouble positioning large mobs then you are just a bad tank in general.

 

How to position huge mobs with large hitboxes.

1. Find out where the center of mass is relative to how far back he stands from you.

2. Find out how far you need to back pedal to get him to follow.

3. Run in a circle around him to rotate him on the center of mass without moveing him.

4. Be good tank.

 

I don't get why you people are having so much trouble with this.

God's gift to earth right there. I have goosebumps

Jugs don't need a pull.

Who said anything about need? Its about minor tweaks to make Juggy's a more pleasurable class to play. We don't need increased threat either. I have tanked every bit of content in the game multiple times over as a Juggy with its current threat capability. Yet a slight boost to threat would be nice.