Title says it all

Would you guys like to see Nightmare-ONLY bosses added to future operations? Assuming Bioware speeds up the time table and releases nightmare modes at the same time, or perhaps SHORTLY after new operations are released, would you like to see optional, non essential bosses to progression but offer the toughest, most brutal challenge of that tier?

Dreadful Entity was great and exciting but I want to see something that doesn't take months of theory crafting, testing and waiting to just be able to spawn. There are many ideas on how this can be accomplished and I would just like to add my personal favorite; Attunements. Here are a few ideas on how this can be done;

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• In order to unlock/engage this NiM only boss, all previous bosses in the OPs must be defeated within the operation during that lockout period.
   
  
• Special items needed to summon (aka Dreadful Entity).
   
  
• Special Timer (aka speed run) Once players engage the first boss of the operation, a special timer will appear alongside the "Under 2 hours" timer alerting players to the time remaining you have to engage and or defeat the optional boss before it despawns until the next reset.
   
  

I know there are a lot of players that still feel like the hardest content in swtor is a bit lack luster, and while NiM modes haven't been released for this tier yet, I fear history will repeat itself as seen with prior NiM modes. Optional NiM -ONLY bosses will add something else to push for. If you would like to see this happen, please show your support by voting! Perhaps even add your own thoughts on the matter on how this can be accomplished. If you don't feel this is necessary, please explain why in the comments below. Regardless, I look forward to reading it.

Not a bad idea. I've always been a fan of "extras" in MMOs, that makes for a nice break from gearing up.

My suggestion though: have these bosses drop random gear, alongside a little extra fluff items. Maybe a new pet, or a cosmetic item. Ever since Karagga's hat was discovered, I've been a huge fan of fun operation rewards.

I agree that the hardest content in this game is way too easy. Lots of raiders that came back for the xpac have already left and many who are still here are ready to leave. I do enjoy that ops very much and feel they are all really cool, just don't like that we cleared it all first week.

BTW Beef up 16M Hm's, make them hard on the communication front and the dps/heals as well. Not lets roll in with 12 people because we can.

While I don't agree that stuff is "too easy" I do like the idea of nightmare only bosses. give those people that want that challenge something really hard to do. something to make them happy.

pile the corpses of the fallen around this boss

SWTOR content is ridiculously easy. Up the difficulty. Create a boss we can't kill on the first night.

Part of the difficulty of bosses in MMOs is, and always has been, determining the appropriate strategy to use. Since TOR tests their ops pretty extensively on the PTS (because loading buggy bosses is friggin' *terribad*), by the time the patch is released, the strat is well known right out of the box. You can't really complain about the difficulty being too low when you're benefiting from having absolutely everything about the fight explained to you beforehand.

Part of the difficulty of bosses in MMOs is, and always has been, determining the appropriate strategy to use. Since TOR tests their ops pretty extensively on the PTS (because loading buggy bosses is friggin' *terribad*), by the time the patch is released, the strat is well known right out of the box. You can't really complain about the difficulty being too low when you're benefiting from having absolutely everything about the fight explained to you beforehand.

This.

This is also why I haven't really touched the PTS since launch, except for about an hour's worth of play time before 2.0 hit. I'm one of those that prefers to learn the content "organically", by playing it. I don't mind so much if someone else in my group who has done it before explains the major points of the boss mechanics, briefly. But I don't want to go read the entire strategy guide before at least trying to figure it out for myself.

Edit: But to the OP's point, I think it's a great idea. It gives those "hardcore" raiders a little something extra.

This game could use an Algalon the Raid Breaker. I support this idea.

Not sure if you're referring to the timer limit or just the boss in general. Both of which, IMO would be cool

I like this idea. As far as spawning them goes, so long as you are (in some fashion) required to complete the rest of the boss's in the instance. I would also BEG, yes beg, for this boss to be something of a HUGE challenge......I am talking something like requiring the raid to be BiS and skilled....etc.

That's basically what I mean by optional & non essential to progression. These kinds of bosses should require a raid to be full BiS, up to date on class & rotation and punishes the raid with with death at the slightest hint of a mistake. Im talking 200+ attempts, and just when your done bashing your head against the wall, clubbing your friend with keyboard and checking in to the nearest physch facility, you kill the boss and the whole server bows down to your awesomeness. THIS IS WHAT WE WANT BIOWARE!

The achievements for NiM S&V hint at something like that

I just read this last night. Yup, that text is the usual format for something else lies ahead. As much as I would like to get away from TFB Secret Boss theorycrafting, I feel like the Dreadful Amulet might play a small part in that. Perhaps on Styrak's throne?

I'm all for NiM exclusive stuff, unless it's exclusive to *16m* NiM (like the Dreadful Entity). Not everyone has 15 buddies to run with and not everyone *with* 15 buddies *wants* to run 16m content. And it's not like you can just fuse 2 8m raids together since you'd be 2 tanks heavy and 2 DPS shy.

I'm on the fence about this. On one hand, I feel you should be able to do this as a guild regardless of the raid size. On the other hand, I love 16mans and love anything that furthers my love of 16mans. /Shrug

Part of the difficulty of bosses in MMOs is, and always has been, determining the appropriate strategy to use. Since TOR tests their ops pretty extensively on the PTS (because loading buggy bosses is friggin' *terribad*), by the time the patch is released, the strat is well known right out of the box. You can't really complain about the difficulty being too low when you're benefiting from having absolutely everything about the fight explained to you beforehand.

There is some truth to it. A counter argument is when 2.0 was on the PTS, alot of people complained S&V was too hard. Knowing the strats had nothing to do with the nerf. Now, We can full clear 16man HM S&V + HM Golden Fury in one night with time to spare on just one raid night. I think the problem is two fold, Knowing the fights beforehand + maybe being a little undertuned?

Now, We can full clear 16man HM S&V + HM Golden Fury in one night with time to spare on just one raid night. I think the problem is two fold, Knowing the fights beforehand + maybe being a little undertuned?

Keep in mind, right now, we're not dealing with NiM. We're dealing with HM. HM is supposed to be hard but not completely mechanically unforgiving. That's NiM. If NiM doesn't consist of a number of absolutely unforgiving versions of old mechanics and a slew of new mechanics that make you want to cry, then it's probably a likely candidate for calling it undertuned.

Of course, it should still be mentioned that you have to look at the difficulty of a particular piece of content when you have *entry level* gear. Talking about it being undertuned now that you've had over a month to gear up isn't running around in entry level gear. At a minimum, you should be in mostly Verpine and Arkanian with a few Underworld pieces. That's not entry gear. Entry gear is unauged (because only NiM assumes augs) BM and probably Arkanian 2 piece. If it feels undertuned it's because *you're* overtuned for that piece of content.

Concerning 16m exclusive content, I've always preferred to run with 8m. When NP happened, even when I was running a group that could run *absolutely everything* with no problem, we weren't allowed to touch that content. When Dreadtooth was added, I liked it because it promised to be a world boss that created a compromise between 8m and 16m content, except that it was something of a lie because it was really just 24m content. Then we found that the Dreadful Entity was, once again, 16m exclusive. That's cutting out *anyone* that doesn't run 16m (or more), and, even if you wanted to do an alliance between multiple 8m groups, you'd still be screwed because the ratios for 8m, 16m, and 24m are *all* different (2:2:4 for 8m; 2:4:10 for 16m; 2:6-8:14-16 for 24m).

The devs have explicitly said that 16m content should be rewarded better (which is funny because, at release, they said the exact opposite), and I don't really have a *major* problem with that because the only difference is in commendations (and, as a tank, comms are pretty much worthless). However, it's pretty unfair to have content that is *exclusive* to 16m content so that 8m groups are not only getting worse/less loot but also less content. I realize that they want to reward 16m because it's "harder" (I've always felt that the difficulty is exclusively based on handling 16 people at a time rather than anything inherently harder about the content so it's not even something that's guaranteed or particularly hard to mitigate with good leadership), but it should only be the *rewards* that they get more of; not content.

Part of the difficulty of bosses in MMOs is, and always has been, determining the appropriate strategy to use. Since TOR tests their ops pretty extensively on the PTS (because loading buggy bosses is friggin' *terribad*), by the time the patch is released, the strat is well known right out of the box. You can't really complain about the difficulty being too low when you're benefiting from having absolutely everything about the fight explained to you beforehand.

No, the fights are easy because they are easy. My guild cleared S&V HM on both 16 and 8 by the 2nd week without knowing the strats and without even gear grinding. 16 man HM was even more of a joke this time along, you can roll in almost all of the fights with 12 people and stomp all over the content. Its a joke, not only did they not add any new mechanics for 16 man s&v the dps and heal requirments could be met by a level 50.

Keep in mind, right now, we're not dealing with NiM. We're dealing with HM. HM is supposed to be hard but not completely mechanically unforgiving. That's NiM. If NiM doesn't consist of a number of absolutely unforgiving versions of old mechanics and a slew of new mechanics that make you want to cry, then it's probably a likely candidate for calling it undertuned.

 

Of course, it should still be mentioned that you have to look at the difficulty of a particular piece of content when you have *entry level* gear. Talking about it being undertuned now that you've had over a month to gear up isn't running around in entry level gear. At a minimum, you should be in mostly Verpine and Arkanian with a few Underworld pieces. That's not entry gear. Entry gear is unauged (because only NiM assumes augs) BM and probably Arkanian 2 piece. If it feels undertuned it's because *you're* overtuned for that piece of content.

I can agree with most of this. I'll use my personal experience with that of my guild as an example. We went ahead cleared 8man HM way before we even touched 16man storymode. This is mostly due to attendance and gear issues. We were able to do 6/7 HM in one night with some of knowing the fights, others hearing the explanation before pull before the first time. All 6 bosses were 1 shots with semi decent gear and not a complete understanding of the fights. Styrak was defeated the next night with relative ease. I certainly agree with you that HM doesn't equal NiM. All im saying is that if memory serves me and if Bioware continues this path of boss difficulty as seen in prior NiM modes, NiM won't be very nightmarish. Granted, character progression is character progression and we as min/maxers kind of bring this upon ourselves by acquiring BiS gear before the next difficulty is even out. Bioware is also at fault for releasing NiM modes after we've had way too much time to get that gear and or are absolutely just sick of that OP/ready for something new.

Concerning 16m exclusive content, I've always preferred to run with 8m. When NP happened, even when I was running a group that could run *absolutely everything* with no problem, we weren't allowed to touch that content. When Dreadtooth was added, I liked it because it promised to be a world boss that created a compromise between 8m and 16m content, except that it was something of a lie because it was really just 24m content. Then we found that the Dreadful Entity was, once again, 16m exclusive. That's cutting out *anyone* that doesn't run 16m (or more), and, even if you wanted to do an alliance between multiple 8m groups, you'd still be screwed because the ratios for 8m, 16m, and 24m are *all* different (2:2:4 for 8m; 2:4:10 for 16m; 2:6-8:14-16 for 24m).

I was basically in the same boat in 1.2 (I think that's when NP was released). I was in a different guild, 8man exclusive. We were very tight knit, able to clear everything no problem and were excited for a world boss we could consider progression. Then we found out it was 16man and had to co op with another 8man guild. What an absolutely hassle. I don't miss it one bit. Although, I'm still friends with a few raiders from that guild so I suppose something good came out of it. I guess what I'm trying to say is and what you are as well, the raid size shouldn't matter. All guilds, regardless of raid size, should be able to test thier strength against a NiM-ONLY boss.

The devs have explicitly said that 16m content should be rewarded better (which is funny because, at release, they said the exact opposite), and I don't really have a *major* problem with that because the only difference is in commendations (and, as a tank, comms are pretty much worthless). However, it's pretty unfair to have content that is *exclusive* to 16m content so that 8m groups are not only getting worse/less loot but also less content. I realize that they want to reward 16m because it's "harder" (I've always felt that the difficulty is exclusively based on handling 16 people at a time rather than anything inherently harder about the content so it's not even something that's guaranteed or particularly hard to mitigate with good leadership), but it should only be the *rewards* that they get more of; not content.

Well it's not like Bioware is following the WOTLK model of 10/25 & 10/25 Heroic gear. I think the fact that 16mans are rewarded 2 tokens instead of 1 in 8mans is a fair adjustment. I wouldn't say that 16mans reward more tokens because its harder (actually, I think 8mans can often be harder than 16), it's just that there are twice the amount of people in a 16 than 8. More people, more loot! Fair?

Also yes, 8man guilds are absolutely screwed out of content simply because the like smaller teams. No one can argue that when you put it that way =)

I wouldn't say that 16mans reward more tokens because its harder (actually, I think 8mans can often be harder than 16), it's just that there are twice the amount of people in a 16 than 8. More people, more loot! Fair?

I asked Jesse Sky (the lead content developer; he designs the content and sets the rewards so he's pretty much the absolute authority on their design) about the difference in comm rewards between 8m and 16m (8m story rewards elite comms, 16m rewards ult comms; 8m HM drops fewer ult comms than 16m) at the M&G a few days back. He explicitly told me that 16m gets better rewards because "they're harder" (and that's actually a quote from him). I think he also elaborated on the increase in rewards by referencing a need to encourage more people to do 16m content because people *weren't* doing it as much as wanted or expected until 16m rewarded more.

Personally, I've always felt that, once you overcome the issue of wrangling people (not hard when you manage to get 16 regular raiders), 16m is easier. The only "hard" part is that required wrangling. It's for that reason that I've, personally, never supported a difference in quality of loot between 8m and 16m (so not like WotLK, which I did play and ran with a 10m and 25m group for both run and was regularly perturbed at the "better" version that the 25m got compared to the more enjoyable 10m). Honestly, I don't even think the commendations should be different (though, as stated, I'm ambivalent about the difference in comms and will remain so unless the difference becomes absolutely *massive*). The advantage of 16m is in a better loot distribution: you get more drops, so, if you have someone looking for a specific drop, you have twice as many chances for it to drop. While, over time, the loot distro is equal, the act of getting specific pieces is substantially better for those taking part. In short, you're less likely to get shafted by an unhappy RNG (which, yes, happens *all the time* in 8m). Also, the healing tends to be of roughly the same difficulty (twice the healers but less than twice the damage offset by spikier incoming damage to account for more regularity of healers) while DPS tends to be easier (since 16m reduces the tank ratio and increases the DPS).

I can understand trying to encourage people to run 16m but saying they're explicitly harder to justify the better loot (keep in mind, I'm referencing the comms here, not the gear that drops since it's the same quantity and simply doubled in number to account for twice the people) seems a bit disingenuous.

To those who think raids must be thougher STOP useing guides videos etc and just go inside and learn the mechanics from scratch gives it a little bit more challange.

everything is easy when you know a fight before you even try it, people rely to much on guides now a days no wonder you clearing like it aint there, im not saying it will make the content so much harder but it gives atleast some challange to it.

To those who think raids must be thougher STOP useing guides videos etc and just go inside and learn the mechanics from scratch gives it a little bit more challange.

everything is easy when you know a fight before you even try it, people rely to much on guides now a days no wonder you clearing like it aint there, im not saying it will make the content so much harder but it gives atleast some challange to it.

who the hell uses guides? Do you even need those for this game? Its too easy.