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[Guide] Sage DPS (TK + Balance) 2.0+

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
[Guide] Sage DPS (TK + Balance) 2.0+

Nibbon's Avatar


Nibbon
04.20.2013 , 05:57 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Nibbon View Post
I'll get you specific numbers later today when I'm in front of my computer :-P
I think I alluded to a bit that this is sort of irrelevant since alacrity does not decrease the cast time of the actual spell specific cooldown - that is if you were to just cast turbulence and nothing, the second turbulence would hit at 9 (the cooldown) + 2 (the cast time) / (1 + alacrity percentage). Now, turbulence always crits - or at least - you should never really cast it when weaken mind is down - so surge is a big factor in the damage output.

Anyway - let's just agree we have 110% alacrity and we have 4 enhancements to play around with.

At 4 surge you are getting a 16.61% bonus to your crit (so you'd hit for a total of 166.61%).

With 4 alacrity enhancements, you will reduce your cast time by 3.97%.

Let's say Turbulence hits for 3250 and we have our 2 points in reverberation (+50% surge bonus).

No surge enhancement = 6500
Surge = 7040

dif

no alacrity (with 2 points in force gift = 25), cast time = 2/(1+.02) = 1.96
with all alacrity, 5.97%, cast time = 2/(1+.0597) = 1.89

But you have to add the 9 second cooldown to factor in the actual DPS of turbulence (this would be if you could somehow recast it every time it came up exactly, technically, but it is the only hypothetical we can really look at).
no alacrity recast = 10.96
alacrity recast = 10.89

DPS alacrity no surge = 6500 / 10.89 = 596.88
DPS surge no alacrity = 7040 / 10.96 = 642.34

surge is 7.6% higher

This is the hypothetical DPS of just turbulence - mind you, you would need weaken mind up in order to really achieve this.

btw if you don't include the cooldown time it is still:
surge 3591.84
alacrity 3439.15

I've mentioned the different curves, here is a visualization:
http://s3.mmoguildsites.com/s3/galle...png?1366253625

x-axis is # of enhancements with the stat (so 1 enhancement = 72 of that stat)
y-axis is the % increase

Anyway - this was just for turbulence, the difference isn't like this for every ability because not every ability auto-crits. In fact with a 20% crit chance on some abilities, the difference would be a ton closer (if not favoring alacrity). The fact that some abilities DO autocrit (Raising your total crit % in a parse) is pretty much THE reason surge is better than alacrity.

Quick example with 20% crit chance
ability does 100 damage - same increases of surge and alacrity (no +50% on surges but 2% from alacrity will be included - cast time of 1.5, GCD)

Surge no alacrity is 166.61 with cast time of 1.47
Alacrity no surge is 150 with cast time of 1.4155

now we have to figure in crit % - so surge's importance is reduced.

166.61*.2+100*.8=113.322/1.47=77.09
150*.2+100*.8=110/1.4155=77.71

so alacrity wins out on that by 0.8%

So, hopefully this overly detailed answer helps actually answer your question :-D

edit: one more example :-D
Adding a cooldown to the last example
113.322/11.47=9.88
110/11.4155=9.64

and surge is higher ;p Thus why it is important why cooldowns should be considered

Aienir's Avatar


Aienir
04.20.2013 , 09:19 PM | #42
Thanks! I got into an argument about alacrity for TK sages/DF gunslingers/Vigilance guardians with someone in my guild. Needed some proof that I didn't have/couldn't calculate due to not having the specific info.

Good to know also!
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CJNJ's Avatar


CJNJ
04.23.2013 , 12:45 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Nibbon View Post
I think I alluded to a bit that this is sort of irrelevant since alacrity does not decrease the cast time of the actual spell specific cooldown - that is if you were to just cast turbulence and nothing, the second turbulence would hit at 9 (the cooldown) + 2 (the cast time) / (1 + alacrity percentage). Now, turbulence always crits - or at least - you should never really cast it when weaken mind is down - so surge is a big factor in the damage output.

Anyway - let's just agree we have 110% alacrity and we have 4 enhancements to play around with.

At 4 surge you are getting a 16.61% bonus to your crit (so you'd hit for a total of 166.61%).

With 4 alacrity enhancements, you will reduce your cast time by 3.97%.

Let's say Turbulence hits for 3250 and we have our 2 points in reverberation (+50% surge bonus).

No surge enhancement = 6500
Surge = 7040

dif

no alacrity (with 2 points in force gift = 25), cast time = 2/(1+.02) = 1.96
with all alacrity, 5.97%, cast time = 2/(1+.0597) = 1.89

But you have to add the 9 second cooldown to factor in the actual DPS of turbulence (this would be if you could somehow recast it every time it came up exactly, technically, but it is the only hypothetical we can really look at).
no alacrity recast = 10.96
alacrity recast = 10.89

DPS alacrity no surge = 6500 / 10.89 = 596.88
DPS surge no alacrity = 7040 / 10.96 = 642.34

surge is 7.6% higher

This is the hypothetical DPS of just turbulence - mind you, you would need weaken mind up in order to really achieve this.

btw if you don't include the cooldown time it is still:
surge 3591.84
alacrity 3439.15

I've mentioned the different curves, here is a visualization:
http://s3.mmoguildsites.com/s3/galle...png?1366253625

x-axis is # of enhancements with the stat (so 1 enhancement = 72 of that stat)
y-axis is the % increase

Anyway - this was just for turbulence, the difference isn't like this for every ability because not every ability auto-crits. In fact with a 20% crit chance on some abilities, the difference would be a ton closer (if not favoring alacrity). The fact that some abilities DO autocrit (Raising your total crit % in a parse) is pretty much THE reason surge is better than alacrity.

Quick example with 20% crit chance
ability does 100 damage - same increases of surge and alacrity (no +50% on surges but 2% from alacrity will be included - cast time of 1.5, GCD)

Surge no alacrity is 166.61 with cast time of 1.47
Alacrity no surge is 150 with cast time of 1.4155

now we have to figure in crit % - so surge's importance is reduced.

166.61*.2+100*.8=113.322/1.47=77.09
150*.2+100*.8=110/1.4155=77.71

so alacrity wins out on that by 0.8%

So, hopefully this overly detailed answer helps actually answer your question :-D

edit: one more example :-D
Adding a cooldown to the last example
113.322/11.47=9.88
110/11.4155=9.64

and surge is higher ;p Thus why it is important why cooldowns should be considered
Wish I could get this for combat sentinel, I have some guildies who are taking 3 alacrity enhancements D:

Nibbon's Avatar


Nibbon
04.23.2013 , 07:33 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by CJNJ View Post
Wish I could get this for combat sentinel, I have some guildies who are taking 3 alacrity enhancements D:
I'm sorry I can't provide you with that - but perhaps you can still use what I wrote out there to help you ;p

I think the basic element is this - your bigger attacks have cooldowns so you cant just chain cast them - the math shows that when there is a cooldown on an ability, alacrity has less of an effect (essentially, the lower cooldown allows for more abilities to be casted over a longer period of time, but that ability is a filler ability (TK throw for balance and disturbance for TK for a sage, but perhaps just a regular attack for a sentinel, I wouldn't know)). So the only way for alacrity to be more useful would be if the "big" attacks had very short cooldowns.

For what is worth - the best sentinel in my guild, she doesn't theory craft but she spends just as much time actually testing things out on a dummy which is not only essentially the same thing but actually more accurate - she says that the ideal stat distribution for a sentinel is 100-101 accuracy and the rest into surge.

SW_display_name's Avatar


SW_display_name
04.23.2013 , 09:26 PM | #45
My habit from Shadow Priest in WoW is to interrupt the filler channel whenever something procs or needs to be refreshed.

What is the correct way to handle Telekinetic Throw spam as Balance? Should it ever be interrupted once started? Currently, I'm cutting the channel short any time:
  • a dot needs to be refreshed
  • Mind Crush / Disturbance gets an instant proc

My assumption is that all the procs / dots are higher priority than finishing a TelThrow channel, but I'm basing that entirely on the habits I learned in WoW.

What is the correct way to handle procs during a TelThrow channel?

Gondolindhrim's Avatar


Gondolindhrim
04.23.2013 , 10:58 PM | #46
Yeah, all of those have a higher priority than TKT. It can be worth finishing the channel if you run into force issues though.
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Nibbon's Avatar


Nibbon
04.24.2013 , 07:54 AM | #47
Before 2.0 - if you had less than 1.5 seconds before a cooldown was about to expire (dot refresh or FiB, mainly) you would fill with a project instead of casting another TT (telekinetic throw). Post 2.0 - I like to fill with an insta-cast disturbance (since it gives the extra 30% dmg, it does more damage than project). Your rotation will mostly be the same and consistent - which is why in my original writeup I said I typically only do one disturbance cast, because this puts the rest of your abilities on the proper cooldowns where you would not interrupt a TT.

If you get in a situation where you need to interrupt a TT, I would say don't. It will cause force issues for a minimal gain in DPS.

SW_display_name's Avatar


SW_display_name
04.24.2013 , 11:56 AM | #48
OK, thank you. That was my primary concern how much you lose/gain by letting TelThrow finish and potentially overwriting an instant-cast Disturbance proc (since it chain-procs during TelThrows fairly often).

I was wondering if I was doing something wrong since I was using Noble Sacrifice a lot every fight to keep my Force up, but I figured the proc would have an ICD if it wasn't intended to be used immediately every time. I guess I guessed wrong.

I did see your comment in the rotation section, but I'm a "priority" thinker and have trouble following actual rotations once things start going crazy. So it helps me to have a list in my head of what's more than important than what.

I like the dot-timing idea, though. That makes a lot of sense now that you explain it, since I do run into a lot of situations where Weaken Mind is almost expired but not quite and I end up cutting a TelThrow off shortly after starting it.

ChuangTzu's Avatar


ChuangTzu
04.25.2013 , 04:35 AM | #49
Can any1 post parses with the differences between hybrid and and full balance?
"Words are for conveying ideas, but when the ideas are understood, you forget the words. How I would love to talk to someone who's forgotten all the words!" Chuang Tzu

khak's Avatar


khak
04.25.2013 , 05:52 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Can any1 post parses with the differences between hybrid and and full balance?
elidhu already did it man though his data is from the pts not much has changed. I believe nibbon linked it on the first page of this topic thread.