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Exfiltrate Should be Removed [version 2]

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Exfiltrate Should be Removed [version 2]

Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
02.05.2019 , 11:02 AM | #11
OP? depends on a situation. the problem with ops is when skill meets skill and it comes to that clutch moment no class in swtor can cuck an op. in a game with 24 different classes 1 class should not be able to cuck 18 other dps/3tnks.

if you have 18 different dps classes, there should be at least 3 specs can can 1v1 (and win) any 1 spec.

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
02.05.2019 , 12:17 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Coloneli View Post
Iím talking about how it would be for them now not how it was in the past with classes having significantly different utility compared to now. Not to mention the difference in TTK.
I'll refer to one of my previous posts:
Quote: Originally Posted by Majspuffen View Post
I am not just advocating for the removal of the dysfunctional abilities, I'm advocating for their removal alongside the pruning of a lot of unnecessary CC.
Also:
Quote: Originally Posted by Coloneli View Post
Desync is one of your main arguments. Going by your logic every speedbost in the game isnít working and needs to be removed. Same with phasewalk as itís very common for sorcs to elevate to 100+ meters.

So letís have a count for every ability that would be seen as broken with this logic
To which I refer you to:
Quote: Originally Posted by Majspuffen View Post
What you're saying is not inherently untrue; desync has always been an issue. But there are degrees. /.../ There's a big difference between can happen and always happens. No class is worse when it comes to desync than the Operative.
If these abilities, such as Force Leap and Force Speed, cause more desync today than they did in the past then something has broken over the years. In the original version there were only minor issues with these abilities and most of the time they would function as intended. Exfiltrate never did, from an observer's point of view. It always caused desync.
Quote: Originally Posted by Coloneli View Post
Iíll be honest most people donít use cleanse dosnt matter the class. And cover? Vaguely useful but this isnít even close to being a core ability like roll.
Just because people don't use cleanse does not mean it's not a useful ability. It's incredibly powerful as it can dispel 8 second mezzes, as well as all tech roots. A well played Operative is hard to pin down and this was true even back in the original game, despite their lack of any mobility abilities. Also, cover was incredibly useful (especially for Medicine and Lethality) but it's the same issue there: people didn't know how to utilize it. Even back in 1.1 when Medicine Operatives were rumoured to be underpowered, in the right hands, they were incredibly difficult to kill and this was largely due to Cover.

However, if they could fix the desync, I would not be so hard on Exfiltrate. Still, I personally don't like the ability, aesthetically, as I think the slower, tactical gameplay of the Operative in the past suited the class better, but I can understand how people these days prefer the reflex-based gameplay. But it's been 6 years. And the performance has not been improved. BioWare adding more mobility abilities hasn't really solved the issue as much as it has made it worse.

Also, kind of unrelated to the topic at hand but, in my personal (and most likely unpopular) opinion: the Cover system was pretty neat. It was fresh and new to the genre. It's sad that they gave up on it rather than explore its possibilities (I don't think the Sniper's portable cover is very exciting). It could actually function as a gap closer and an escape tool to the opportunistic and keen-eyed player. I miss it quite a lot.

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
02.05.2019 , 12:30 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by bUrself_ View Post
SWTOR has pruned abilities in recent expansions - small stuff with relatively low impact, crushing darkness on sins for example. The second you start mass pruning things of huge importance to the metagame like gap closers, DCDs, and CCs you are MASSIVELY messing with the state of the game.

Balancing games with very different classes is hard. Even if you're doing small, targeted changes. Completely removing abilities and mechanics that have been in the game for years (and were therefore balanced around for years) is basically guaranteed to be a mess.
Yes, there are fewer abilities these days but I find myself unable to play the game without a Razer Naga. I had to dig mine up shortly after having returned to the game, whereas in World of Warcraft I can make do with a Razer Deathadder (that ony has two thumb-buttons). Considering the game's appeal to a more casual audience, I'm surprised they haven't gotten rid of more abilities, but it is most likely as you say: it's difficult to balance. And the ability count probably doesn't matter. The difficulty level for the levelling content is non-existant. I see Jedi Guardians at max level spamming Cyclone Strike as though it's the most efficient way to dispatch enemies. But I digress.
Quote: Originally Posted by bUrself_ View Post
How is it "broken," exactly? It's certainly not overpowered seeing as how operative dps have been a niche, middling choice for practically the entire life of the game. Operative healers have had their heyday but exfiltrate had little to do with that.

I'm not in love with exfiltrate. It seems to me their reliance on it rather than on traditional mitigation DCDs has a lot to do with op's apparently permanent status as a niche, 1v1ing, objective-doing, off healer that is always outclassed in trinity team fights by at least a few classes that don't need to spend dozens of GCDs rolling around to not die. But one thing op dps certainly are not is overpowered.
It's broken in the sense that it causes desync and at the time of my first post (back in 2013) it was certainly overpowered. It might not be overpowered today, but it is extremely powerful. Also, what I mean by saying that they put "all eggs in one basket" is that so much of the Operative's survivability is tied to Exfiltrate. The evasion for Concealment is, as you say, very powerful. As is the instant heal for Lethality. And having the knockback to Overload shot tied to Exfiltrate is pretty clunky as well but it kind of works because the cooldown is so short.
Quote: Originally Posted by Seterade View Post
OP? depends on a situation. the problem with ops is when skill meets skill and it comes to that clutch moment no class in swtor can cuck an op. in a game with 24 different classes 1 class should not be able to cuck 18 other dps/3tnks.

if you have 18 different dps classes, there should be at least 3 specs can can 1v1 (and win) any 1 spec.
Aye. Bit of a tangent, but I agree. I don't find 1v1s all that fun on my Operative because the odds are in my favour. I find it to be much more fun on my Serenity Shadow. Mainly because it's difficult against most classes. Operatives are impossible though, unless they're played by really bad players.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
02.05.2019 , 01:59 PM | #14
If they removed roll from ops, the entire class abilities would have to be redesigned. I mean the entire gameplay revolves around roll, lol. Also, roll is fun. It's a fun part of the class.

I recognize the issues roll causes, technically and in gameplay for other classes but rather see other changes make the class easier to kill and not so "trolly."

As for holotraverse, mad blitz dash or w/e it's called, basically any of the newest movement abilities they should be chucked out the window into the garbage bin. They do not work with the game's system, they are far more glitchy than roll imo, too. Phasewalk works fine, and rarely glitches. The self teleporting abilities are crap though, I agree they should go.

A lot of the movement boost abilities and CC immunities have forced the devs to add more CC abilities, it's gotten really bad with over the last 3 years. It used to be lowbies PVP was more fun due to the huge influx of movement/CC/anti-CC abilities aren't in the WZs yet. This just proves sometimes simpler is better and more dynamic.

Basically I wish they would revisit the CC, anti-CC defensives some classes get and tone them down big time. The problem is the classes with the most anti CC defensives enjoy the majority of success in PVP. Hence why operatives are on top of the pile when it comes to one on ones and in staying alive. They enjoy lots of mobility as well as ways to deflect CC and damage.

I love the excuse, "you just got to root the operative! They are so easy to kill!" lol. Even with this being said, I like roll. I think roll should stay, but ought to be nerfed depending on the spec and the class should have an overhaul of their attacks as well as their defensives to make them more in line with other DPS classes. I wouldn't want to remove such an iconic ability though.
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Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
02.05.2019 , 04:14 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Majspuffen View Post
  • The ability is too strong
  • The ability looks ridiculous (i.e. poor animation quality)
  • The ability doesn't work and causes desync
1. It's not. It has to be timed amazingly well -- which is particularly difficult against multiple opponents. It also costs a full GCD. The op can literally do nothing during this time.
2. It looks fine.
3. It works, but it's a bit wonky sometimes. Once, I accidentally double rolled right of a ledge in the A&E fight. Causes desync? No. Bad connections, lag, stuttering graphics, etc cause desync. Vertical jumps are desyncy as well.
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I believe he's quoting a frequent contributor to these forums. His name is Strawman.
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Thanks Rion Starbrah.

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
02.05.2019 , 06:08 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
If they removed roll from ops, the entire class abilities would have to be redesigned. I mean the entire gameplay revolves around roll, lol. Also, roll is fun. It's a fun part of the class.
I can't begrudge you for thinking that it is a fun ability. Fun is subjective. But what you're saying is kind of the reason why I despise it so much. It wasn't part of the original design; it came in 2.0, and since the class has been balanced around it. I don't think any other class has undergone such a drastic transformation in design as the Operative has. Mercenaries got electro net, an ability that forever shifted the meta, but it didn't really impact their gameplay in any other way than them having a really strong new ability.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
As for holotraverse, mad blitz dash or w/e it's called, basically any of the newest movement abilities they should be chucked out the window into the garbage bin. They do not work with the game's system, they are far more glitchy than roll imo, too. Phasewalk works fine, and rarely glitches. The self teleporting abilities are crap though, I agree they should go.

A lot of the movement boost abilities and CC immunities have forced the devs to add more CC abilities, it's gotten really bad with over the last 3 years. It used to be lowbies PVP was more fun due to the huge influx of movement/CC/anti-CC abilities aren't in the WZs yet. This just proves sometimes simpler is better and more dynamic.
Thank you! First time I feel like I have some tailwind in this thread. As it stands, there are so many roots, so many root breakers and so many mobility cooldowns that the pace can be rather jarring. And the engine can't even handle it! So it's not just that the pace feels jarring, the actual gaming experience is jarring. Slowing down the pace of PvP won't automatically ruin the balance. There isn't much of a balance to ruin, and the pace used to be slower anyway.
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
1. It's not. It has to be timed amazingly well -- which is particularly difficult against multiple opponents. It also costs a full GCD. The op can literally do nothing during this time.
2. It looks fine.
3. It works, but it's a bit wonky sometimes. Once, I accidentally double rolled right of a ledge in the A&E fight. Causes desync? No. Bad connections, lag, stuttering graphics, etc cause desync. Vertical jumps are desyncy as well.
The summary isn't all that relevant anymore, it was mainly relevant for consistency. When I first made this thread in 2013 you could use Exfiltrate 8 times in a row, and it has been toned down since. And Exfiltrate may not cause desync; it may have been poorly phrased by me. But now we're getting at semantics and I think the point still stands: when opponents use Exfiltrate they will often desynchronize, more so than compared to other abilities. Whether this is due to its short CD, or because its design encourages players to use it in a way that makes them desync or whether Satan himself has cursed the ability or not is moot. Desynchronization happens and Exfiltrate is the King of the Hill.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
02.05.2019 , 07:18 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Majspuffen View Post
Thank you! First time I feel like I have some tailwind in this thread. As it stands, there are so many roots, so many root breakers and so many mobility cooldowns that the pace can be rather jarring. And the engine can't even handle it! So it's not just that the pace feels jarring, the actual gaming experience is jarring. Slowing down the pace of PvP won't automatically ruin the balance. There isn't much of a balance to ruin, and the pace used to be slower anyway.
Well, I have been beating this horse dead for years regarding how the focus in PVP is on CC, anti-CC abilities/defensives, and speed boost abilities. I don't like this meta and used to complain about it ad nauseum. Basically I just stopped because the game tends to go it's own route no matter what I want (or others for that matter.)

What exacerbated this new meta of movement-oriented PVP was the addition of even more ridiculous movement abilities like the self portal ones and extreme movement speed boosts like predation and the added utility boost that buffed hydraulic overrides, and others things I can't think of at this moment. I just never felt they were needed in the first place.

I think BW devs wanted to add dynamic abilities that were far more imaginative than the original abilities, and that they were. However as fancy as they were and as great as they sounded in theory technically speaking the devs did a poor job meshing these abilities into the game. Whether it's the engine, how they coded the new abilities, I do not know.

I just know these new movement buffs to many of the different classes rendered a lot of the maps far less challenging as well as removing challenge in PVP when gifting classes with so many ways to close gaps or to avoid CC with overpowered defensives that make CC useless by enemies.

For example, scoring in huttball takes 10 seconds by a coordinated team that uses predation and roll or other movement abilities. Basically the maps were created with specific distances to add challenge to doing the objectives, and the new movement abilities have rendered the maps obsolete in the way they were first designed. I feel the same exists with some classes that are not as blessed as others with awesome movement boosts and/or innate defensives that make them immune to CC, some classes are weak only because they can't match the others when it comes to avoiding CC or moving freely as much as those with immunities.

Instead of adding more CC, more anti-CC defensives, or more speed boosts to the classes I wish they'd just tone down the amount of CC in totality. The problem is, many classes have been developed to rely on their superior movement abilities and immunities to CC.

I don't play Ops, and although I aint fond of their abilities to troll me around a map indefinitely never dying, I still do like their rolling ability. I think the movement looks neat (unlike you) and i also don't notice it glitching nearly as much as some of the other abilities like holotraverse or phantom stride. These abiltiies hardly ever work properly especially in Huttball where there's lots of different levels in the map.

My point here is in an idealistic SWTOR world I just think some of the survivability operatives have should be toned down. I believe their damage output ought to be developed better though. Perhaps a slight increase on their burst, just changes that would make them less hard to kill, yet better at killing.

The problem is the playstyle is very unique and probably one of the only ones on SWTOR that make a class iconic in a game if that's possible. Even if they wanted to change the class, I fear they would destroy it if they tried to adjust how roll works or how they mitigate damage etc. So many classes have been neutered by the devs over the years just because some people complained and/or the devs just felt like changing how a class plays.

The changes to PTs are awful imo. I played a Pyro PT years ago, yes it was simple but it was fun. They changed it's name to AP PT and then made it's long range attacks short ranged/mid ranged. The classes gameplay was made less varied and simplified and I hated it after that. That's just one example I am familiar with when the devs decide to alter a classes style of play only making it less fun. I would worry they'd do the same for Operatives.
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SlimPikinz's Avatar


SlimPikinz
02.07.2019 , 12:36 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post

What exacerbated this new meta of movement-oriented PVP was the addition of even more ridiculous movement abilities like the self portal ones and extreme movement speed boosts like predation and the added utility boost that buffed hydraulic overrides, and others things I can't think of at this moment. I just never felt they were needed in the first place.

I think BW devs wanted to add dynamic abilities that were far more imaginative than the original abilities, and that they were. However as fancy as they were and as great as they sounded in theory technically speaking the devs did a poor job meshing these abilities into the game. Whether it's the engine, how they coded the new abilities, I do not know.

I just know these new movement buffs to many of the different classes rendered a lot of the maps far less challenging as well as removing challenge in PVP when gifting classes with so many ways to close gaps or to avoid CC with overpowered defensives that make CC useless by enemies.

For example, scoring in huttball takes 10 seconds by a coordinated team that uses predation and roll or other movement abilities. Basically the maps were created with specific distances to add challenge to doing the objectives, and the new movement abilities have rendered the maps obsolete in the way they were first designed. I feel the same exists with some classes that are not as blessed as others with awesome movement boosts and/or innate defensives that make them immune to CC, some classes are weak only because they can't match the others when it comes to avoiding CC or moving freely as much as those with immunities.
Phasewalk needs to be nerfed; change my mind.

People will disagree with me but I honestly think it's the truth. While most of these abilities do as you say, they aren't as bad as Phasewalk. I won't go into too much detail because I've already exhausted myself trying to explain it over the years why it is not healthy for the game.
See:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=960142

With a bit of fine-tuning, I believe these abilities can remain in the game with mostly the same functionality.

Exfiltrate: Add a rate limit for resist / dodge chance. "Can only occur every x seconds"
Predation: Remove defense chance, reduce duration, or a reduced movement speed percentage for friendly players
Phasewalk: Reduce range or consume all force upon use

I think these 3 are the outliers when it comes to movement ability balance, and they should be revisited after X years of being in the game.

Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
02.07.2019 , 12:53 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
Sorc lose all force after useing PW.... HAHAHAHAAHAHH oh wait, your serious, let me laugh even harder BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHA