That's because Anakin Skywalker used his rage long before he became a Sith, and he noted that it made him more powerful. I'd also question that he did not become even more powerful after being anointed Darth Vader, considering his accomplishments in the Jedi Temple. Not even Shaak Ti could defeat him.

 

That's not surprising Beni, Anakin already beforehand was already one of the greatest duelists in the JO.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

No, no no.

 

The Light side is supposed to be the Slow and Steady path to a Higher power, and the Dark Side a mad rush for a smaller power than will inevitably leave them.

 

IE, Baras, Sion, they lost their power in the dark side because it is a fleeting power.

 

But yes, the Light Side is supposed to achieve more. And the people contending for this list are all those that completed their Path, we're not talking about the masses of simpletons.

I missed this, don't believe the nonsense the Jedi tell you about the dark side being a candle quick to burn out. Its just as coloured as the Sith telling you that the dark side is superior.

 

Darth Baras lost his power? At the end of his life he as strong as ever!

 

Darth Sion lost his power because the Exile encouraged him to give it up, before that he was very powerful.

 

And what about Darth Sidious, Plagueis, Exar Kun, Vader, Marek, the Sith Emperor etc.? I don't recall their power burning out, the idea that the dark side is "fleeting" makes little sense I feel and I see little/no basis for it.

 

The light side and the dark side are equal, both paths lead to power of equal level. The dark side just gets you there faster, and Sith try harder. Whereas vast majority of Jedi evidently die before they ever achieve their full potential, which is why this list is predominantly Sith. But again, if you have a suggestion, state it! Apply your theory!

Edited February 9, 2014 by Beniboybling

That's not surprising Beni, Anakin already beforehand was already one of the greatest duelists in the JO.

While true, I really don't feel Anakin could have achieve that without the power of the dark side.

 

I mean he creamed Jedi Battlemaster Cin Drallig.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Beniboybling

What's the current discussion now? Are you still accepting suggestions?

 

With all the force talk I'd like to see some lightsaber based discussions

My suggestions for discussion are (4.)Jaina vs (5.)Obi-Wan in the Jedi lightsaber duelist list and (3.)Kun vs (4.)Vader and (5.)Dooku on the sith one.

OK this is primarily for my own benefit, but others may find it helpful to. I'm going to do a formal comparison of Exar Kun, Vader and Jaina Solo so I can be definite about this, then we'll move on with some further suggestions.

 

Control

 

Darth Vader: was exceptionally skilled in the use of Force Rage, bolstering his strength, speed and agility by channeling his emotions. He has shrugged off impalement with seemingly little difficulty, can channel his rage to survive and fight for short periods of time without his breathing apparatus and/or with damage to the rest of his suit and has recovered from being buried alive. And, in his most impressive display, willing himself back to life. He was also capable of using Force healing to repair his damaged lungs, though unable to sustain it. He was also a master of tutanimis, capable of reflecting blaster bolts and powerful Force lightning attacks.

 

Exar Kun: was also a master of Force Rage, which he could use to augment his Force Abilities, on one occasion channeling his rage to destroy Force-imbued weaponry in a single lightsaber attack. He was also capable of unleashing and controlling this dark rage at will. He was also capable of using tutanimis to deflect Force blasts. Exar Kun also used a Sith ritual to bind his essence to Yavin 4 in essence form, he would later return in spirit form to influence the material world in devastating ways. Exar Kun was also capable of dark healing, however he has never been seen to use it.

 

Jaina Solo: was a master over Force Speed which she used to to outpace a Vong warlord and defeat multiple members of the Lost Tribe of the Sith, despite being severely injured. She was also exceptionally skilled in the use of Force Concealment, capable of hiding her presence even from Darth Caedus. And finally she was a master of Force Healing, capable of recovering from grievous injury mid battle and bringing herself back from the brink of death. She was also capable of going toe-to-toe with Darth Caedus himself, though only when bolstered by Luke himself.

 

Conclusion: As already discussed, Vader is superior to Exar Kun in this category. Ultimately I think I'd declare Jaina and Vader equal, both have shown exceptional ability Force Valor/Force Rage, with Jaina showing exceptional speed and Vader exceptional strength and endurance. They have also shown themselves capable of grievous and life threatening injury, and while Jaina has an edge in Force Concealement, only because Vader never entered this field, which should be noted was a natural and rare talent. And for that reason I'd place Jaina over Kun as well.

 

Sense

 

Darth Vader: was capable of telepathically communicating with the minds of others, and was able to both sense and communicate with his son over considerable distances, as well as recognize the presence of Kenobi.

 

Exar Kun: was capable of sensing the presence of powerful dark siders from across the galaxy and could communicate with his apprentice, Ulic, from an equally vast distance.

 

Jaina Solo: was a master of shatterpoint, with her abilities rivaling that of Mace Windu, using this ability to great effect to overcome Darth Caedus in combat. She was also capable telepath.

 

Conclusion: Again as before Exar Kun and Vader are equals here, and I'd say Jaina is equal too. For we have to remember that shatterpoint, while impressive, is an innate ability, and her competitors abilities are equally impressive.

 

Alter

 

Darth Vader: was an extremely powerful wielder of telekinesis, capable of lifting starfighters, crushing starships, collapsing entire buildings, unleashing colossal waves of energy that could wipe out scores upon score of opponents grip and crush powerful Jedi with relative ease. His mastery over this technique was also incredibly refined, capable of fine manipulation of multiple small objects while simultaneously fighting with a lightsaber.

 

Vader was also capable of Force Destruction, a power that involved creating a massive energy field and unleashing it in a concentrated blast that had the potential to vaporize anything and anyone caught in its radius. It should be noted however that he has only demonstrated this ability via game mechanics so it is theoretical.

 

He could also induce fear in the minds of his soldiers, using mental coercion in an attempt to seduce Luke to the dark side and was easily able to probe Luke's innermost thoughts with ease, despite the latter's attempt to hide them from him. Vader was also capable of rooting opponents to the spot with his mind. He was also capable of beast control.

 

Finally Vader was highly proficient in the use of Force barriers, able to create a nigh impenetrable shield about himself which could absorb energy from dozens upon dozens of shooters. He was also capable of negating the effect of attacks from powerful Force wielders and rendering himself immovable to powerful wind currents. One might also infer that in part he was able to sustain damage from violent explosions and the like using Force techniques.

 

Exar Kun: also possessed exceptional command over telekinesis, capable of easily incapacitating perhaps a dozen Jedi with a wave of Force energy, and killing powerful Jedi Master Odan Urr with a Force Crush. Exar Kun was also a mastery of Sith Sorcery, and in particular favoured use of the Force Blast. A powerful projection of pure dark side energy that could vaporize objects, opponents and even Force sensitives. An ability which Exar Kun used to incapacitate Aleema Keto, and destroy the spirit of Freedon Nadd.

 

He was also capable of dominating and controlling the minds of non-Force sensitives with a Sith Spell - the strain of which resulted in the death of the victim, and was able to perform a mass Force stun to paralyse the entire senate. Finally Exar Kun had proficient Force shields which have only been penetrated by Freedon Nadd and Odan Urr, both powerful wielders of the Force, and despite that he seemed to take little damage and recovered quickly.

 

Jaina Solo: Despite being a Jedi, possessed a powerful and deadly command over Force Lightning which manifested itself as black as was powerful enough to leave Vong twisted and deformed, Vong being resistant to Force Abilities and such an effect being similar to that of her brother Jacen, though before turning to the dark side. She was also capable of using against members of the Lost Tribe, breaking through their barriers and killing them. Jaina also possessed great ability with Force Sever, capable of temporarily severing Sith Sabers from the Force. Jaina was also highly skilled in the use of mind control, capable of manipulating the minds of Force Sensitives.

 

Conclusion: We've already discussed a comparison between Exar Kun and Vader's individual abilities within the sphere of alter. So we shall focus specifically on Jaina's talents. Firstly her ability with Force Lightning/her ability to break through the barriers of Force Sensitives. It is certainly powerful but it lacks range, as far as I'm aware Jaina has only be capable of using gouts of lightening aimed at singular opponents, as opposed to multiple.

 

Both Vader and Exar Kun have shown themselves capable of smashing the barriers of Force based opponents. But Exar Kun has smashed the barriers of multiple with powerful Force waves and his Force Blasts on top of that have destroyed superior beings to what Jaina was capable of. Vader and Jaina are likely equal in terms of scope, as Vader has only broken the barriers of singular opponents however I'd deem Vader's opponents more powerful. Among them being Jedi Masters that I would deem superior to a Sith Saber.

 

And while Jaina has shown herself capable of using Force Lightning against a Force Resistant species, we should remember that Force Lightning creates electrical/heat energy which would fry them either way. I am certain there are certain Force related traits involved that they'd be protected from, but likely no better than a Force Shield.

 

Secondly we have mind control, in which I'd conclude both Vader and Jaina to be superior to Exar Kun as they were capable of not only manipulating the minds of Force Sensitive targets, but doing so without the aid of amulets. Jaina and Vader themselves being equal in this category, given that both have shown themselves able of the same thing. However we must remember that ultimately unleashing power such as telekinetic waves and lightning, which then breaks the barriers of targets, is more demanding than simply breaking the powers without such energy.

 

So given that I'd still deem Exar Kun superior in this category, gaining the most important edges in this category. And Vader too for the same reasons, they demonstrate greater raw power.

 

==================================================

 

Overall we have Exar Kun taking the overall edge I feel. For while he is surpassed by Jaina and Vader in terms of Control, it is by a very small amount, and ultimately he gains a more firm edge over both Jaina and Vader in the superior category of Alter, and loses nothing in terms of Sense. Next I would have to say Vader, he matches Jaina in terms of both Control and Sense and gains the advantage in terms of Alter, though by a smaller amount compared to Kun. As you can see it is very very close, with every one of them surpassing each other in at least one way.

 

P.S. I really don't actually think Jaina was superior to ROTJ Luke, at least not when empowered by the dark side and perhaps only marginally (if at all) when not. We have to remember that Luke possessed the power of the Chosen One and we have little reason to believe that at the age of 23, especially with his innate affinity, Luke had not achieve much of that potential. After all only a little after he deflected blaster bolts from an AT-AT and only six years after that, Luke went on to defeat the Sidious himself in his most powerful incarnation.

 

Sidious being actually afraid of Luke's power while on the Death Star, which speaks volumes. All in all I don't think we can say for sure that Jaina would have been able to defeat Vader, Luke couldn't without the power of the dark side and Vader wasn't even bringing his telekinesis to bare. Jaina would have a very rough time, but it could swing either way.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Beniboybling

While true, I really don't feel Anakin could have achieve that without the power of the dark side.

 

I mean he creamed Jedi Battlemaster Cin Drallig.

 

Why wouldn't he? He's taken on superior duelists than anyone in the Temple ever had done. Then again that is a little one sided, because everyone in the Temple were pretty much background characters that no one ever got to see.

 

But ya I'm pretty sure even without going over to the dark side, he would mop the floor with a lot of Jedi. Remembering that he only just turned to the dark side, he wouldn't have the full grasp of it's power anyway so I don't think it actually helped him much, aside from being more agressive.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

Why wouldn't he? He's taken on superior duelists than anyone in the Temple ever had done. Then again that is a little one sided, because everyone in the Temple were pretty much background characters that no one ever got to see.

 

But ya I'm pretty sure even without going over to the dark side, he would mop the floor with a lot of Jedi. Remembering that he only just turned to the dark side, he wouldn't have the full grasp of it's power anyway so I don't think it actually helped him much, aside from being more agressive.

Yeah but like, we are talking what Dooku and Ventress? And they put up a fight. I agree he could take down quite a lot of Jedi, but I just think Anakin taking on the Temple without like a single injury indicates he was pumped on dark side.

 

I mean Cin Drallig may not be a monster, but he is a Battlemaster of whom Dooku believed Grievous would stand no chance against, and on top of that he had help from his two Padawans who were also slaughtered.

 

And while yes you have a point, the fact that his eyes turned yellow and what not indicates that Anakin was far more in-tune with the dark side than ever before. Those aggressive feelings that had been fueling his power beforehand had now been unleashed, it could not help but make him stronger - despite being unrefined, its raw power.

Yeah but like, we are talking what Dooku and Ventress? And they put up a fight. I agree he could take down quite a lot of Jedi, but I just think Anakin taking on the Temple without like a single injury indicates he was pumped on dark side.

 

I mean Cin Drallig may not be a monster, but he is a Battlemaster of whom Dooku believed Grievous would stand no chance against, and on top of that he had help from his two Padawans who were also slaughtered.

 

And while yes you have a point, the fact that his eyes turned yellow and what not indicates that Anakin was far more in-tune with the dark side than ever before. Those aggressive feelings that had been fueling his power beforehand had now been unleashed, it could not help but make him stronger - despite being unrefined, its raw power.

 

There weren't really any threats to Anakin in the Temple so him not getting injured is plausible, plus the fact he had an entire legion backing him. So it's not like every Jedi just suddenly converged on him.

 

While that is true about Cin, I don't think Grevious would last against Anakin either. Still though there could have been other factors surrounding that.

 

Though i'll give you that with the eye thing.

What's the current discussion now? Are you still accepting suggestions?

 

With all the force talk I'd like to see some lightsaber based discussions

My suggestions for discussion are (4.)Jaina vs (5.)Obi-Wan in the Jedi lightsaber duelist list and (3.)Kun vs (4.)Vader and (5.)Dooku on the sith one.

Lightsaber discussions will have to wait a bit, but I'll file those suggestions.

 

As of now, I'm going to make up a few more articles for this Force User lists from suggestions and a few of my own.

I agree with the analysis, Beni.

I think I disagree for 1 reason after reading the analysis. The ability to Manipulate the Mind of a Force sensitive is an EXTREMELY tricky thing. If people with strong wills and no Force Sensitivity can resist than doing so against trained sensitives who have mental shields up is vastly more impressive. Of course if that was all she did wouldnt be argueing but with in conjuction with the other stuff I feel we may have an arguement for her to be at least on par with Kun.

I think I disagree for 1 reason after reading the analysis. The ability to Manipulate the Mind of a Force sensitive is an EXTREMELY tricky thing. If people with strong wills and no Force Sensitivity can resist than doing so against trained sensitives who have mental shields up is vastly more impressive. Of course if that was all she did wouldnt be argueing but with in conjuction with the other stuff I feel we may have an arguement for her to be at least on par with Kun.

 

Well, It's not really a display of Raw power, but technique.

Traya has far more impressive feats, IE Invading the mind of Surik and Rand, Sion and Brianna, all trained force sensitives with mental blocks, but even I would't say it's basis to put her above Kun.

 

Sure, it's damn Impressive, but it's also more technique IMO.

Well, It's not really a display of Raw power, but technique.

Traya has far more impressive feats, IE Invading the mind of Surik and Rand, Sion and Brianna, all trained force sensitives with mental blocks, but even I would't say it's basis to put her above Kun.

 

Sure, it's damn Impressive, but it's also more technique IMO.

 

Thats a good arguement, but I wouldnt say those Feats are "more impressive" invading a mind and Manipulating are 2 different things it is VASTLY easier to Invade then it is to Manipulate.

I think I disagree for 1 reason after reading the analysis. The ability to Manipulate the Mind of a Force sensitive is an EXTREMELY tricky thing. If people with strong wills and no Force Sensitivity can resist than doing so against trained sensitives who have mental shields up is vastly more impressive. Of course if that was all she did wouldnt be argueing but with in conjuction with the other stuff I feel we may have an arguement for her to be at least on par with Kun.

I actually forgot to assess mind control, but I've added it in now:

 

Secondly we have mind control, in which I'd conclude both Vader and Jaina to be superior to Exar Kun as they were capable of not only manipulating the minds of Force Sensitive targets, but doing so without the aid of amulets. Jaina and Vader themselves being equal in this category, given that both have shown themselves able of the same thing. However we must remember that ultimately unleashing power such as telekinetic waves and lightning, which then breaks the barriers of targets, is more demanding than simply breaking the powers without such energy.

 

So given that I'd still deem Exar Kun superior in this category, gaining the most important edges in this category. And Vader too for the same reasons, they demonstrate greater raw power.

 

Overall I think unleashing Force Blasts and Force Waves on such a magnitude is more impressive, and I think Exar Kun is still superior, especially given the fact that he did possess mind controlling/manipulating powers and we can't be totally sure that he could not manipulate the minds of others without the aid of an amulet.

 

Essentially it doesn't have much impact.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Beniboybling

Thats a good arguement, but I wouldnt say those Feats are "more impressive" invading a mind and Manipulating are 2 different things it is VASTLY easier to Invade then it is to Manipulate.

 

Yeh, but again, Atton had incredible mental defenses, and not only did she invade them, she forced him into a coma.

 

Bao-Dur, who was said to have naturally strong defenses, was again put to sleep by Traya without her even flicking her wrist...

 

She also manipulated the mind of Mical, to make Mical think he was hearing noises, and whispers, and she also blocked her presence completely from his mind, He didn't even know Kreia was on the ship until too late...

 

It seemed like skill to me...

Edited February 9, 2014 by Selenial

So what are our current thoughts on Article 5? Aurbere seems to be in agreement. Probably Lady too. Edited February 9, 2014 by Beniboybling

So what are our current thoughts on Article 5? Aurbere seems to be in agreement. Probably Lady too.

 

Don't know incredible amounts on Jaina, but I'd probably be in agreement.

So what are our current thoughts on Article 5? Aurbere seems to be in agreement. Probably Lady too.

 

Indeed I am in agreement.

Exar Kun mind controlled all of the 21 prodigal Jedi so they wouldn't leave, then he smashed the Sith holocron to make them Dark Siders, that is how Darth Sion was born, Kun mind controlled him completely which left him totally susceptible to a Massassi spirit trapped in the holocron itself, this made him all but invincible, combine his mind losing almost all personality, with the famous endurance of the Massassi Warriors and you get something nigh un-killable, fuelled by the Dark Side.

 

So yes Exar Kun is completely able to dominate the minds of Force Users, 21 of them at the same time in-fact.

 

But yes I'd agree with Beni's assessment.

Edited February 9, 2014 by LadyKulvax

Exar Kun mind controlled all of the 21 prodigal Jedi so they wouldn't leave, then he smashed the Sith holocron to make them Dark Siders, that is how Darth Sion was born, Kun mind controlled him completely which left him totally susceptible to a Massassi spirit trapped in the holocron itself, this made him all but invincible, combine his mind losing almost all personality, with the famous endurance of the Massassi Warriors and you get something nigh un-killable, fuelled by the Dark Side.

 

So yes Exar Kun is completely able to dominate the minds of Force Users, 21 of them at the same time in-fact.

 

But yes I'd agree with Beni's assessment.

Oh is that so? I thought he just convinced them with a charismatic speech...

 

And what's that about Sion? I thought he had just been shoehorned into the whole thing when KOTOR II was released.

Oh is that so? I thought he just convinced them with a charismatic speech...

 

And what's that about Sion? I thought he had just been shoehorned into the whole thing when KOTOR II was released.

 

They were going to leave when they were attacked once they landed on Dxun, and he was losing their belief, so he used a mind control spell to force them to listen to his speech, then he smashed the holocron.

 

Oh and his background is detailed in the KotOR CG, he was one of the 21 prodigal knights, he turned into the Lord of Pain because he was partially possessed by a Massassi Chieftain's spirit combine that with his Dark Rage and this made both his mind and body almost indestructible.

They were going to leave when they were attacked once they landed on Dxun, and he was losing their belief, so he used a mind control spell to force them to listen to his speech, then he smashed the holocron.

 

Oh and his background is detailed in the KotOR CG, he was one of the 21 prodigal knights, he turned into the Lord of Pain because he was partially possessed by a Massassi Chieftain's spirit combine that with his Dark Rage and this made both his mind and body almost indestructible.

Oh, very interesting, I didn't realise they added that extra detail. Anyway I'll update the analysis of Kun, I think this solidifies his position.

 

So, any further revisions people want to suggest?

So, any further revisions people want to suggest?

 

Well, if you're taking suggestions, I'll reiterate:

 

Plagueis > Vitiate

Obi-Wan Kenobi > Saba Sebatyne

OK, we all seem generally in agreement concerning the last article, so I'll make the changes and we can begin discussing a set of new ones. The first of which is up on the OP.

OK, we all seem generally in agreement concerning the last article, so I'll make the changes and we can begin discussing a set of new ones. The first of which is up on the OP.

 

I will provide my argument on the article tomorrow.